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[174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s70sm2075170qke.80.2020.06.11.05.24.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49jNN32TPrz2lGL for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:24:43 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/UUojp6f22VGJecXidGCAlDL"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jNN720FGz4WJF X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=Ve1tN6lw; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.88 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.51)[-0.506]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.017]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:24:56 -0000 --Sig_/UUojp6f22VGJecXidGCAlDL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:56:58 +0200, Polytropon commented: >On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: =20 >> > However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient >> > it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why >> > sometimes replies are send "twice"=E2=80=A6 =20 > >Attention! Here we have a severe case of "MUA ate my homework"! > >Your MUA did modify (!) my original message, so the quote is no >longer correct (as it imples something that I didn't write). > >Aspect 1 is no big problem: It removed my newlines and put >everything into one long line. This is no big deal with >regular text ("paragraph text"), but would be with code, >or something laid out to be a table or a diagram in text. I think that could also be attributed to the fact that many users configure their MUSs to use a specific font and/or font size that affects the final display of the received email. I prefer a larger font myself since my eye sight isn't what it was 20 years ago. >Aspect 2, and that _is_ a problem: I wrote "...", which is >three periods, and your MUA turned it into "=E2=80=A6", which is >an UTF-8 ellipsis. If UTF was used to begin with, that problem would evaporate. >Aspect 2a, a sign of inconsistency, is that your MUA did >not change my " double quotation marks (inch symbols) into >correct typographical quotation marks. And how could it? >Which rules would apply? I'm in Germany, so our quotation >marks are "two down" and "two up", while in English, you >usually how "two in" and "two out", something like this, >incorrectly simplified: > > ,,The german style.'' > > ``The english style.'' I believe the 'American' style would be: U+201C and U-201D : =E2=80=9CAmerican style=E2=80=9D In any case, I have not seen your 'magical character transpositions" in my everyday use. Perhaps it is a systemic problem with your MUA. >And there are of course differences in AE and BE. You can >also see that I used tabs and empty lines for format my >reply. If a MUA eats those, big problem. > >A typographically skilled person will even say that using >something like =E2=80=9Cthat=E2=80=9C is wrong (uses same symbol for start >and end of quoting). > >Similarly, MUAs could mess with the use of dashes ("-" or >"=E2=80=93") or apostrophes ("'" or "=E2=80=99"). > >All those considerations of course lead to breaking my >carefully crafted message in plain ASCII (not even using >ISO-8859-1) and lifting it into the UTF-8 multibyte universe >with all its unsolved questions. ;-) I use UTF-8 and find it solves problems, not creates them. >> A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied >> sender if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the >> message was from a list, [...] =20 > >As I mentioned, this will only work as long as the relevant >headers are intact. If some MUA mangles them on the way (yes, >I'm looking at you, MICROS~1 products!), this will no longer >work. And as I've been saying this, MICROS~1 products are >also known for changing message content (see above, aspect 2), >and even mangling timestamps and timezones. "Citation need for products post 2010" I am aware the the latest versions of MS Outlook can be configured to reformat long lines, (the removal of soft line breaks) and I actually fine that quite useful. I use MS Outlook for my job and I find receiving and then trying to read a long, detailed message in lines restricted to <=3D 80 characters a real PIA when I have a 32" HD screen. Of course, YMMV. >Oh, and MUAs don't have to be smart. It's much better if the >people using them are smart. That's fully sufficient. :-) And rarely seen in the wild. :) >> [...] and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 keys in >> precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. =20 I put that into the same category as being expected to write a cryptic 30 line XML document to get a simple device to work. >Which is inconvenient for users who _wish_ to be CCed in the >typical "reply to all" manner. Simple solution, join the mailing group. don't put the burden on the email recipient. Take responsibility for your own actions. I know, extremely rare these days. >If I remember correctly, "reply to all" has never been a real >problem on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Users can set up filtering >rules to remove duplicate messages they might receive during a >thread, or remind their counterparts to pay attention to use >the "reply to mailing list" button. Unfortunately, some sneaky 'repliers' include the intended recipient's name in the "To:" field that complicates filtering messages. >Sadly, Sylpheed has a prominent "reply to all" button, whereas >"reply to mailing list" is a drop-down element next to the >regular "reply" button. So you can guess which one gets used >the most. Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined "To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to properly configure it. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/UUojp6f22VGJecXidGCAlDL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7iIowACgkQOHMGOIfe xWT0tgf/bveb2mNr5OMXC2uLd2tE2PG6HGC61Vifd/HvBHUQXrPOAUk9VhIZ66nE niXQqXZOD4E9D62TLrOd2b0ZFL7y91MUrY8FGTPzIQC1RGc5EtXD67LiqXuNiqVr tdaDMtxvIJmepv+vAzWOe6xdxmDJOpWSyDPRs3v7n59LyxuUozit5zS2x18B3M/2 yj91doSIt9W0Rd7dQNNCg/BEdxtzzQs/wOAkEYaumXG1Flg6tm4QgXf9itzUFrPw NpifLnXe3nHfvASs0cDFhxDlgbGP7bM2HMtTxMgTQQanAaN++xp5uxk+qPenZ9cY eDyzQuorvXMKjBal0SMZcsk7z4PlmQ== =026Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/UUojp6f22VGJecXidGCAlDL--