From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sun May 19 19:16:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE63158BD7B for ; Sun, 19 May 2019 19:16:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAE5070E42 for ; Sun, 19 May 2019 19:16:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id h1so13990668qtp.1 for ; Sun, 19 May 2019 12:16:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/EdF3ypemlkgMoRHPHBL4Ac1haemiKCSAgONv8LBG+0=; b=nCVjjtV9UvgtTcclO2+PymhmgiE7pKihkARIyK0v7KQk5Tr7qyCvrjDCY16SLP9EXF AiNKeaLcKYxi4ZvbAuQn80VP3b/M02PhV3jl3m+t9YQHUHtHtVMYY42o74FlQtSGVsZY 1WPnPJSdqSjkPOmkSHs+rg+2c//hEkJ4ekzVgH1HT4QYiWYLq0W5yY+h0YoXENvQ1d7e w5w89JWvKtoCUVIebp+GsP9NNEaOu4VfPR0gTMarpaFHsJ/6Iiiy55CM6X0OLukhKfS7 0E+tJNNzlANRjuEG41R5afhfSWe4mafA7fyfb5fI3/1UsCcmHoZWJxfh3dybQ1UQgM1+ lKbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/EdF3ypemlkgMoRHPHBL4Ac1haemiKCSAgONv8LBG+0=; b=OK3RxlJmIJV6BneRYjyXnqmZcqQMYKu1OmitnNIvEkGjDfLHAPbW788YUM5GTCTlGE URvSgRiiivp9NMPwh175PnCaaOfhEjOX7SBa1NCulFgNobbRIRTaiCTiZT0FlprizyZR dFivjuC24Gv3rOR0FSMXTN1lE5AP6EadkZmZpN7EwGFAIrqrRwimxw10YM6zaoFHOoiO sI3Radq7rTKKV32MGjFbqjcrZHptQ3oUXBKwUPcvymBFn27I2aJPEeOc56N+zAosCmhJ H1yNSlpvOH4xnRTh256zOxS3x+KUEYx4tGGwQnq+St1qEZ6+v98nFqjYHHtADBZSnVc1 OxAg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUN46i/EnaJ7vNUeazYynodDJ6BjIIWLamTICJ1kYg7JyKG+co6 0UJP6EzryA8xnRfke5y0UHrFMTQ5WslmKDlu4JSi1g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzDxbbci9PSyqO0cfm5I2E7nYJ2cgl7rmt7zaCVl2X1v/Br4+Quk5dS6jFJpYhWi/BeLWTb7vHnxmzQuScNRBs= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:ad1c:: with SMTP id u28mr13759108qvc.87.1558293375160; Sun, 19 May 2019 12:16:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <868svf6r05.fsf@phe.ftfl.ca> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 13:16:04 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts To: Igor Mozolevsky Cc: Graham Perrin , FreeBSD Current X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: DAE5070E42 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=nCVjjtV9 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.80 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT1.aspmx.l.google.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.79)[-0.789,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; IP_SCORE(-3.00)[ip: (-9.41), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.26), asn: 15169(-2.27), country: US(-0.06)]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 19:16:18 -0000 On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote: > > > > > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but > > > these six words did make me chuckle: > > > > > > > =E2=80=A6 freedom of expression =E2=80=A6 End of discussion. > > > > > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to > > > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) > > > > > > > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tel= l > > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. > > > > While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as > "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded > theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or > opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is > triggered by precisely the latter. > It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from the project that could otherwise be spent on making things better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, as well as having a fair and just response by the board in the cases that require some action. Warner