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Date:      Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:55:26 +0200
From:      Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org>
To:        grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
Cc:        freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc.
Message-ID:  <753A27F9-9CEA-4592-A44F-91164917358B@freebsd.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-UpyXYnNYCVCh%2BcUs-Q70b47CMeiPSK6BgYhB_3C0cLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <CAD2Ti2-UpyXYnNYCVCh%2BcUs-Q70b47CMeiPSK6BgYhB_3C0cLQ@mail.gmail.com>

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> On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
>>=20
>> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en=
/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc
>>=20
>> FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections
>> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754
>>=20
>> I'm glad that HTML is supported.
>=20
> No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists.
> Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's.
>=20
>> Also, I want support for things such as PNG.
>=20
> Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes,
> but rightly tend to be administratively size limited.
>=20
>> What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in
>> the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all
>> the messages?
>=20
> There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat.
> Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and
> via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat.
>=20
>=20
>> we are dealing with real people working with the email
>> clients available to them in 2022
>=20
> Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette
> won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and disciplined.=


Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various argu=
ments from different people without context is bad style - I gave very speci=
fic examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile de=
vices where people don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects of how thing=
s are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be foll=
owed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if we want to h=
ave communication happen on our mailing lists.

My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to follow a=
ny line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the typog=
raphically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use ASCII=
 - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80=98" to "'" m=
anually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an accepta=
ble experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen.

If your email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2=80=
=99s time to fix your setup.

-m

p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists?


--Apple-Mail-E01B37ED-F1B1-43C0-BDCD-7999E94A0C67
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 26. Jun 2022, at 09=
:37, grarpamp &lt;grarpamp@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<span>https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content=
/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc</span><br></blockquote><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span=
>FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections</span><br></blockquot=
e><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug=
.cgi?id=3D264754</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></sp=
an><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>I'm glad that HTML is su=
pported.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>No, people should not=
 be sending HTML emails to lists.</span><br><span>Consult history of email n=
etiquettes to discover the many why's.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><span>Also, I want support for things such as PNG.</span><br=
></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Attachments are not necessarily against=
 such netiquettes,</span><br><span>but rightly tend to be administratively s=
ize limited.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>What=
 is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in</span><br></blockq=
uote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is a=
lready appended to all</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><spa=
n>the messages?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>There is no su=
ch footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat.</span><br><span>Thei=
r aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and</span><br>=
<span>via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat.</span><=
br><span></span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>we are d=
ealing with real people working with the email</span><br></blockquote><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><span>clients available to them in 2022</span><br></bloc=
kquote><span></span><br><span>Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc,=
 and the netiquette</span><br><span>won validity for good reasons and is sti=
ll taught trained and disciplined.</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Tryi=
ng to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various argument=
s from different people without context is bad style - I gave very specific e=
xamples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile devices=
 where people don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects of how things are=
 sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be followed g=
iven the realities of today and where we need to relax if we want to have co=
mmunication happen on our mailing lists.</span></div><div><br></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">My answer here i=
s an example of that - there is no reasonable way to follow any line length l=
imits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the typographically corre=
ct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use ASCII - but there is n=
o way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80=98" to "'" manually or disabl=
e the features that make typing on such a device an acceptable experience. J=
ust won=E2=80=99t happen.</span></div><div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0=
, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></span></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"=
><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">If your email client and/or your=
 desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2=80=99s time to fix your setup.</s=
pan></font></div><div><br></div><div>-m</div><div><br></div><div>p.s. Is it r=
eally necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists?</div><div><br></d=
iv></body></html>=

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