Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:01:26 +0000 From: desiertos <anarquia@deathsdoor.com> To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> Cc: Mike <muck@ida.net>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? Message-ID: <3585C3E6.742991CE@deathsdoor.com> References: <199806101519.IAA22143@hub.freebsd.org> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980610123932.3675A-100000@echonyc.com> <19980616075807.13931@welearn.com.au> <3585A1F2.41C67EA6@ida.net> <19980616093038.27112@welearn.com.au>
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--------------7BE4F94DB7987C69C30A42AC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Sue is right, I am a newbie FreeBSD user, and I was a Linux user and admin, I find FreeBSD more robust, but, when my first FreeBSD installing, the setup didnt show too much about sizes or explanation about I was going to install... so I got problems with disk space... is very difficult to add some lines at 'sysinstall' to make things even easier to newcomers and make this operating system better than it is? :) Sue Blake wrote: > Thanks for using NetForward! > http://www.netforward.com > v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v > > On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 04:36:34PM -0600, Mike wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > > I hope that you experts have a nice Hackerly Correct installation that > > > will satisfy your philosopy about what's "right". We'll all catch up with > > > you one day if you make us work hard enough. > > > > > > > I agree with you that more info should be provided by sysinstall, > > Fine :-) > > But you want more. So be it. > > > but when you are asked *too* many questions, it becomes annoying. Case > > in point when you delete files in win95. > > > > 1st try: "Are you sure that you want to send this directory to the > > recycle bin?" Yes. > > > > 2nd try: "foo.exe is a program. Are you sure you want to send it to > > the recycle bin?" > > Yes-to-All. > > > > 3rd try: File-Empty Recycle bin. "Are you sure you want to delete > > these programs?" > > Yes. > > > > You have to answer yes three times to delete the program. > > > > > > It sounds like that is what you would like sysinstall to prompt you for > > each package you install. > > Now you're being absurd. And totally missing the point. What makes you > think that, because I wish for some access to info about the size of what > I select to install, I want this stupid question and answer game, or > because I want things like my shell and favourite editor set up during > installation I want to be asked to confirm all packages? What makes you > think that, just because I'm a newbie, I have run win95 let alone like > what it does? You are obviously quite familiar with its behaviour, so you > must prefer it. Just as silly, no? > > > Not sure if any of the above had anything to do with your email, but oh > > well. > > Perhaps not, but it was very revealing about common untested prejudices > about newbies. Now, come on, tell me that I'll never be prepared to read > the f*cking manual without telling me where the bloody thing is or > checking yourself that the topic is included, come on, tell me I'm too > stupid to appreciate anything that's done to make things easier, that I > only want a games machine or a typewriter, that I'll never be anything to > freebsd except wasted space, that I want everything done for me by others > without putting in any effort. Then when I ask for advice on how to > approach learning/fixing something give a cryptic one-liner or do the > whole bloody job for me so you can use this as evidence of my laziness. > Do those things now while I'm here brandishing thick skin, not to some > other sucker who's too intimidated to teach you about their true > motivation. If you do still cling to the bullish naive assumptions about > newbies, use them or lose them. > > I don't see how any hacker can claim to be good until they understand the > needs of those who are most restricted in their use of the software, > whether those needs can be addressed or not. Most people here seem to > agree, but have less than ideal access to the newbie's point of view. > Until you believe that there is something, anything, to be gained from > newbies you'll keep spiralling into a diminishing world of cronies. > You don't attract new blood by shedding it. > > OBTW, when you guys are two old to see the bloody screen and your fingers > are too gnarled to use the keyboard properly, we'll be sitting here > developing your adaptive software however we think is "good for them". > Remember that :-) > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- desiertos url: http://www.anarquia.net/ icq: 7225960 --------------7BE4F94DB7987C69C30A42AC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> <P>I think Sue is right, I am a newbie FreeBSD user, and I was a Linux user and admin, I find FreeBSD more robust, but, when my first FreeBSD <BR>installing, the setup didnt show too much about sizes or explanation about I was going to install... so I got problems with disk space... is very <BR>difficult to add some lines at 'sysinstall' to make things even easier to newcomers and make this operating system better than it is? :) <BR> <P>Sue Blake wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Thanks for using NetForward! <BR><A HREF="http://www.netforward.com">http://www.netforward.com</A>; <BR>v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v <P>On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 04:36:34PM -0600, Mike wrote: <BR>> Sue Blake wrote: <BR>> > <BR>> > I hope that you experts have a nice Hackerly Correct installation that <BR>> > will satisfy your philosopy about what's "right". We'll all catch up with <BR>> > you one day if you make us work hard enough. <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>> I agree with you that more info should be provided by sysinstall, <P>Fine :-) <P>But you want more. So be it. <P>> but when you are asked *too* many questions, it becomes annoying. Case <BR>> in point when you delete files in win95. <BR>> <BR>> 1st try: "Are you sure that you want to send this directory to the <BR>> recycle bin?" Yes. <BR>> <BR>> 2nd try: "foo.exe is a program. Are you sure you want to send it to <BR>> the recycle bin?" <BR>> Yes-to-All. <BR>> <BR>> 3rd try: File-Empty Recycle bin. "Are you sure you want to delete <BR>> these programs?" <BR>> Yes. <BR>> <BR>> You have to answer yes three times to delete the program. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> It sounds like that is what you would like sysinstall to prompt you for <BR>> each package you install. <P>Now you're being absurd. And totally missing the point. What makes you <BR>think that, because I wish for some access to info about the size of what <BR>I select to install, I want this stupid question and answer game, or <BR>because I want things like my shell and favourite editor set up during <BR>installation I want to be asked to confirm all packages? What makes you <BR>think that, just because I'm a newbie, I have run win95 let alone like <BR>what it does? You are obviously quite familiar with its behaviour, so you <BR>must prefer it. Just as silly, no? <P>> Not sure if any of the above had anything to do with your email, but oh <BR>> well. <P>Perhaps not, but it was very revealing about common untested prejudices <BR>about newbies. Now, come on, tell me that I'll never be prepared to read <BR>the f*cking manual without telling me where the bloody thing is or <BR>checking yourself that the topic is included, come on, tell me I'm too <BR>stupid to appreciate anything that's done to make things easier, that I <BR>only want a games machine or a typewriter, that I'll never be anything to <BR>freebsd except wasted space, that I want everything done for me by others <BR>without putting in any effort. Then when I ask for advice on how to <BR>approach learning/fixing something give a cryptic one-liner or do the <BR>whole bloody job for me so you can use this as evidence of my laziness. <BR>Do those things now while I'm here brandishing thick skin, not to some <BR>other sucker who's too intimidated to teach you about their true <BR>motivation. If you do still cling to the bullish naive assumptions about <BR>newbies, use them or lose them. <P>I don't see how any hacker can claim to be good until they understand the <BR>needs of those who are most restricted in their use of the software, <BR>whether those needs can be addressed or not. Most people here seem to <BR>agree, but have less than ideal access to the newbie's point of view. <BR>Until you believe that there is something, anything, to be gained from <BR>newbies you'll keep spiralling into a diminishing world of cronies. <BR>You don't attract new blood by shedding it. <P>OBTW, when you guys are two old to see the bloody screen and your fingers <BR>are too gnarled to use the keyboard properly, we'll be sitting here <BR>developing your adaptive software however we think is "good for them". <BR>Remember that :-) <P>-- <P>Regards, <BR> -*Sue*- <P>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org <BR>with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message</BLOCKQUOTE> <PRE>-- desiertos url: <A HREF="http://www.anarquia.net/">http://www.anarquia.net/</A>; icq: 7225960</PRE> </HTML> --------------7BE4F94DB7987C69C30A42AC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
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