From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 19 16:45:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4639F16A41F for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:45:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bsilver@chrononomicon.com) Received: from trans-warp.net (hyperion.trans-warp.net [216.37.208.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6BF43D49 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:45:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bsilver@chrononomicon.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unverified [65.193.73.208]) by trans-warp.net (SurgeMail 2.2g3) with ESMTP id 16995486 for multiple; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:45:39 -0400 In-Reply-To: <126eac480507190836313fe1d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <126eac480507181053398deebe@mail.gmail.com> <126eac480507190836313fe1d8@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Silverstrim Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:45:27 -0400 To: Josh Ockert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Authenticated-User: bsilver@chrononomicon.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: Demon license? X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:45:57 -0000 On Jul 19, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Josh Ockert wrote: >> Go ahead. Blocking it just shows that you are totally unwilling to >> consider any position different than your own. I am at least >> willing to continue to discuss it. > > No. I have no objection to your position. I have an objection to your > complete lack of disrespect. I know I'D be angry at people who show an utter lack of disrepect, you punk! (ha ha..touche'!) > You are a troll. You go on and on, > misquoting, deliberately trying to confuse the issue, and just > generally adding nothing to the discussion. That's kind of odd since I remember Ted giving help on the list a number of times. Personally the term Troll is becoming rather watered down, which is a shame...it used to actually mean someone who was out to do nothing but cause trouble. This is no longer how the word is used now apparently. It is a generic term used towards anyone with whom one has a disagreement with online. One thing I do not understand is why people say things like "you're deliberately misinterpreting..."..."you're confusing the issue..."...etc....and not stop, take a breath, and actually spell out the issue(s) *as you understand them* and ask for clarifications. Get some common ground on which to communicate. If one is talking about apples and the other bitching about oranges, at least get that straightened out. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time. Spell out the issue. Clarify for understanding. Argue and *stay on topic* until resolved point by point. Otherwise...quit wasting your time. >> Much like the current US President George Bush blocks his ears when >> people point out to him that he committed to fire whoever leaked >> a covert CIA operative's identity - then when it was discovered that >> his right-hand-man did it, he goes back on his word. > > Except that in that case people were pointing out facts. As you said > in your email, there has been no official vote. So you have no facts. Technically, votes != facts. > You are in effect contradicting yourself when you say that those in > favor of the new logo ARE in the extreme minority, but then say there > was never any tally of opinions. Overall, the argument is foolish. I really see why some people keep their OS projects to themselves for control, if for nothing else than to keep large groups of people from bitching about something that may or may not be within the scope of the project's goals to begin with. Beastie has been associated with FreeBSD for how long now? Since 1.0? Ronald McDonald...logo, or mascot? Does it really matter? They're considered one in the same by the public. There are a number of more-religious-than-not people who had advocated getting rid of the logoscot of Beastie because he invokes the image of the "DEVIL". There are many ignoramuses out there who think themselves experts in using computers because they get an MSCE cert. There was someone in my own computer science classes who managed to pass with her four year degree without even knowing what in hell an operating system was in relation to an application. These people are out there making up the field of "IT Professionals". Who exactly is qualified to decide whether or not Beastie should be the logoscot of the Project? The users who couldn't tell a source code file from a binary? The users who can configure a DHCP server without glancing at the console? I would think the Project people would...since they're the ones doing the project. What they say, goes. If you don't like it, fork the project with your own logo/logoscot/motto/t-shirt. What you say at the point, goes. >> If you "block the address of anyone who continues on in this manner" >> you simply prove my point for me - that the proponents of this >> anti-Beastie crusade only care what they want, not what anyone else >> wants. > > I never said I was anti-Beastie. I'm not. I have many pieces of > pro-Beastie propaganda (look the word up before you start flaming). I > do however think it would be beneficial to have an image that is more > abstract and more suitable to corporate customers. Corporate backing > helps penetration into the market and it sometimes can result in > funding. Refer please to Linux and IBM. Yeah, because a fat penguin is a wonderful image to portray. On the other hand, IBM tended to partner with actual corporations with an actual logo...for themselves. Linux gets benefits from the ensuing halo effect, but there are particular businesses that get the direct benefits. I don't see Linspire doing cartwheels because of IBM. The thing is, FreeBSD as a project may think it's NICE to get hardware/cash/goodies from businesses, but doesn't set out courting to get them (note...not on FBSD Project team, these are my observations and opinions). You wouldn't necessarily WANT it. When you start hopping into bed with particular businesses, you start making concessions to them. Then things just start getting messy. If you're an impartial project you don't need to set out in search of the niche. FreeBSD is growing in use because it is good to use for certain applications, and the niche has come to FreeBSD. Theo de Raadt doesn't give a damn about who uses what with his project; it's art to him, he does this for himself, and despite his sandpaper personality OpenBSD has quite a reputation for itself and is a player in the firewall and secure server field. Wanna donate to him? Go ahead...he'll say thanks, but if you try to get him to scratch your back as a tit-for-tat, he'll more than likely give ye' the finger and sidle off. FreeBSD doesn't need strings attached via corporate entanglements, in my opinion. If people are interested in this with the hearts, go start a business. Come up with the logo for your business, reselling/supporting FreeBSD. Get a team to work on developing what you see as shortcomings in FreeBSD. Then take your corporation and approach other businesses, explaining that your spiffy OS, based on FreeBSD, is better than XYZ. Leave FreeBSD to keep developing and chugging away as it has been. >> Perhaps nobody that YOU might consider authoratative has ever made a >> blanket statement that "Beastie's image is the official FreeBSD >> Project's >> Logo" however that is nothing more than a semantic argument. His >> image has been USED as the logo on just about every CDROM pressing >> that Walnut Creek ever sold, and in numerous other websites and >> on the FreeBSD Project's website. And I am not talking about the full >> color images on the front of the CD jewel cases, I'm talking about the >> minature Beastie logo image on the back. Face the fact, Beastie is >> the >> current logo. > > I've never disagreed with you on this. Before. Now I will. There are > generally two types of logos. There is the "Official Logo" which is > often what you see on media packaging. This is usually a combination > of words and a graphic. Might want to tell that to Nike... According to dictionary.com, a logo is: A name, symbol, or trademark designed for easy and definite recognition, especially one borne on a single printing plate or piece of type. Short for logogram and logotype. A company emblem or device. > Those responsible for the new logo contest > contend that the logo in this sense of the word is that found at > http://www.freebsd.org/gifs/freebsd_1.gif. I find that I have no > trouble agreeing with them. A logo is what's supposed to give you a > first impression of a product. A logo is about marketing. Advertising. > Viewed in this light, Beastie cannot be the logo because he does not > have any direct link to the FreeBSD project, he is only associated > with it. One does not see Beastie for the first time and automatically > conclude "FreeBSD"! I know a guy in a yellow jumpsuit and clown makeup just SCREAMS McDonalds. Or the golden arches sitting alone, without the rest of the name. Anyone who is familiar at all with FreeBSD for more than a day's research time knows about Beastie, in graphic if not in name. Tux...doesn't tell me about Red Hat. Or Linux, for that matter. Come to think of it, most logos don't have you automaticaly conclude . They are associated to each other artificially so you see one and think of the other. I mean...a logo is a visual representation of the first few notes of the Jaws theme. Or the bladed glove and striped sweater...what does that image remind most reasonable US (and European, perhaps?) people to think of? And a cracked hockey mask...? Whenever enthusiasts and project sites have gone up for FreeBSD, Beastie has normally been found somewhere on the page. They just go together and are associated with each other, and for all intents and purposes, arguing logo vs. mascot vs. logoscot is merely arguing semantics. Beastie reminds users of FreeBSD of FreeBSD like a pretty blue screen reminds them of Windows. > It is this goal that one hopes will be > accomplished with the new logo. To what end? Try to become someone's corporate bitch? Become marketing friendly, maybe even more user click-and-drool friendly? Get it to the point where Windows system admins won't need to know squat about MX records in order to set up and run a mail server or DNS server? Maybe we could encourage more growth in that sector of IT...you know...IT people who know squat...dumb things down a little more. First step is usually a shiny little LOGO to slap on a business card. Let's make the logo something inoffensive too...I mean, we wouldn't want more of those idiot geek people and their inside jokes about "daemons" to continue their subversive campaign to have people learn things. Let's make the logo a puddle of yellow water with a trout jumping out of it...symbolic of all the pissing matches this argument as spawned. Unless the whole fish thing would be offensive to Xtians (http://www.answers.com/topic/xmas). >> Now, you may argue that it is time for the FreeBSD Project to change >> it's logo - although I have yet to see a logical reason for this - >> and I think I and the userbase would have some respect for this >> argument if you could use a logical proof. But your argument that >> he never was the logo to begin with is nothing more than an attempt >> to side-step the discussion of why do we need to change the logo now. > > Logical proofs are intended to demonstrate truths. An action in the > future is not a truth. No intelligent person would claim that "FreeBSD > should change its logo" is a theorem to be proven by a system of > postulates and axioms. By virtue of the word "should" it is entirely a > statement of judgment. The reasoning behind this judgment is that > there are many cases in which FreeBSD might have been used that it was > not because some PHB didn't like Beastie. To be honest, considering > corporate culture and the threat of being sued and/or required to take > sensitivity classes, I cannot fault the PHB for not wanting Beastie > around. In fact, if you search the mail archives you'll find people > trying to get rid of the Beastie boot menu because it got them into > trouble at work. Um...why bother using it at all then? I mean, there's no logical necessity to having a logo or a mascot...just wipe it down completely. Purge FreeBSD of the graphics, and get rid of the copyright statements, etc...make it a pure OS, consisting solely of code necessary to function. Make it more efficient, the source is smaller, and how can it be offensive it is stripped of all non-technical aspects? > > Forgive my rambling. My point is: > Corporate-friendly politically-correct logo => higher market > penetration => more people using and hopefully contributing to FreeBSD > => FreeBSD gets better > whereas > Current logo/mascot/whateverthe****youwannacallitidontreallygivea**** > => Some change-resistant people are happy. Forgive my rambling, but FreeBSD isn't out to take over the world. It was simply made to do a job. It was and is improved and used by geeks who like inside jokes, and after all, when it comes to free-source operating systems, it is a geek's party and the market promoters are the crashers. If you want to use something with fewer headaches than Windows tends to give, use FreeBSD or Linux. If not, FreeBSD isn't one particular business's project or pet ho'. The FreeBSD project team gives their own time for development, and if some businesses as a whole sticks their nose up at it it's not a reason for FreeBSD leaders to cry themselves to sleep at night. If you want to pursue the corporate sponsorship route, start a corporation, integrate FreeBSD into your project OS, and start approaching them. Leave FreeBSD out of it. >> This is a cowards argument and not one that will generate any respect >> among the userbase. > > Except those that are tired of having to explain what a daemon is to > people who don't have any appreciation for the internal workings of > the system. Then don't explain it. RTFM or ignore it. If one is truly tired of babying the PHBs, they stop coddling and get the job done or move on. Or reply, "It just is", or have them explain some irrelevant aspect of their job or hobby. I mean...why a flying multi-colored window for a logo/symbol? Is it a reference to broken windows, or draftiness? Can you Mister-Windows-User explain that? Well...it just is. Users are by their very nature dense. Ooh...prettier less offensive logo now! So...tell me....why do I need to "log in" to use it again? Why do I need to type XYZ to do ABC? Why.... >> And trying to argue that there's room for both a logo and a mascot >> is purely an argument of appeasement. > > You've obviously never been in charge of a large organization. The > whole point is appeasement. You're trying to make the least number of > people pissed off. Wow, that is a formula that just screams that the end result will be efficient and useful. Because, you know, all good things came out of committee... >> There can only be one recognizable >> imagery for The FreeBSD Project, just as for ANY product. > > Really? OpenBSD happens to use both a blowfish (Puffy) and a > Beastie-like daemon quite successfully. Actually, OpenBSD associates with the blowfish more than both Puffy-and-Beastie-like-daemon. I see Puffy, I think OpenBSD. I see Daemon-like-creature, I think FreeBSD. >> The situation would be analogous to if one day Microsoft decided they >> wanted to stop using the Windows logo and the word "Windows" to refer >> to their product line. It wouldn't work because the Windows userbase >> would simply ignore any alternative attempt at a logo than the flying >> Window. > > That's funny. In XP they redid their old logo. It's now much more > stylized. But is it still just a flying window? Since when did "stylized" mean new logo? If it's still basically the same logo...look at it, stylized as it is, and still recognize it as belonging to MS Windows, how does this negate his statement above? >>> Furthermore, you and some of those sharing your viewpoints have tried >>> to paint those wishing for a different logo as in the extreme >>> minority. >> >> They are. > > Prove it. Isn't the burden of proof on the person making the assertion? And wouldn't it be pointless if it's the Project people who are in charge that make the final say, unless you spin off a new fork?