From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 27 10:34:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC0816A4BF for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1942F43FAF for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19s4EZ-000CRP-EX; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:37:27 +0100 Message-ID: <3F26A888.4040405@iconoplex.co.uk> From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mooneer Salem References: <000a01c352e8$8d152790$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> In-Reply-To: <000a01c352e8$8d152790$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:34:08 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:02:00 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:34:08 -0000 Mooneer Salem wrote: >I meant to reply to this message, but I haven't had the time until now. >:) Anyways, while reviewing for the LPI certification exams (there's a >lot of obscure stuff that isn't used often in server administration, it >seems) I thought of "the ultimate (insert OS here)" certification exam. > Wow. Haven't seen this thread for a while. It kind of died out as I got busy with stuff at work-work, but I do have some notes I'm collating. It's turning into a monster of a project here, but I'm having to step back a little here because I want to talk to some people who know about accreditation professionally. I work at a University in a project that is involved with defining new CPD and accreditation mechanisms, so I want to bring in some of that experience. >After taking the multiple choice section of the exam, the test takers >would go to another room with rows of computers on the desks. Before the >actual exam takes place, the exam creators would take a hard drive, >install FreeBSD on it, and then basically manufacture a problem that >would require a sysadmin to fix it (such as a trashed boot sector or >Apache). Preferably the problem would normally take about an hour to two >hours to solve. Each test taker would have access to a FreeBSD CD and >the Internet (for Google). Network and routing information would be >provided on a whiteboard in the front of the room in case the computers >are not set up properly for networking. > OK, this is problematic. It causes problems because what you're proposing has implications: 1. Cost. What you're suggesting is expensive to setup, co-ordinate and run. I'm fed up of hearing about people not wanting to do CPD because it's a "waste of money". We can address that by increasing quality within our own domain, AND reducing cost as much as possible. 2. Consistency. How do we check the guys in CA are getting tests as hard as the guys in Afghanistan? Employ an army of people who can check the quality and standards of the testing centres? 3. Complexity. Is the ability to walk into a room and fix a trashed boot sector useful for somebody who is going to running an ISP operation where a trashed machine just gets re-installed? How do we manage CPD goals, skills, etc. into a framework that is useful yet adaptable. Your thoughts are good and I know at least one person who has spoken to me off-list would like to get something like that together - maybe you should get in touch with each other - but this doesn't feel like it's going in the same direction as I am. I promise, I am working on this despite my quietness over the last month, and when the docs are ready for public consumption, I'll post the URL up here. I'm really keen to get some feedback. Currently, the key salient points are: - All testing done on-line as multiple choice. Sure, the guy can IRC to a guy who has done it, but his 100 questions will be picked randomly out of more than 2,000, and he only has an hour to complete it. You either know it, or you're going to cut and paste - the latter will take too long, and we'll take points off you for not finishing. That means costs are reduced (no testinf centre required), and we can maintain quality whilst retaining a sense of security. - Tests produce points that build into larger groupings that produce qualifications. This is hard to explain, but the tests you do to get a qualification won't be the ones the guy next to you does. It means if you're into mail and dial-up, and the guy next to you is into web and dns, you can both get CPD qualifications, but you don't both have to know each others stuff. This gets mad - I know exactly how to do this, but space prevents me explaining here. - This is not about FreeBSD. Sure, there'll be FreeBSD tests, but I want to produce something wider ranging that shows you have skills that employers, peers, whoever, will respect you for. FreeBSD will be in the first set of tests we produce, but I'm not going to ignore Open/Net/DragonFly/Darwin/Linux/QNX/whatever - These tests are going to be hard. REALLY hard. You're going to have to study no matter how long you've been a Unix wizard. Sure, Greg Lehey might get the FreeBSD kernel-hacking tests down on the first try, but he might be the only one who does. The point is, people should respect this stuff. I don't want to work on a Unix equivalent to the MCSE qualifications. My spare time is too valuable. I'm sure your training budget is too. - Lastly, if you do a test on FreeBSD, it won't cost you much, but a percentage of that fee goes to FreeBSD. We might spot areas of docs that need filling in so will throw money at the docs project specifically (we want all study material to be freely available), but in general, if you pay for a set of tests on the BSDs, the BSDs will get money. We obviously need to take out an operational cost but I'll keep that as low as I can for now. This is something I haven't even started to talk to people about, but it makes sense. How many other ways can you think of convincing your employers to donate cash to FreeBSD? :-) >BTW: Paul, maybe we can chat via private email more about your ideas for >certification, if you'd like. :) > There will be a mailing list setup for this in the next couple of weeks, because lots of people want to get stuck in. If I drive this (I will, even if nobody else wants to get involved and even if nobody looks like they would sign up :-) ), it'll be run as a limited company in the UK, but I want as many people as possible (wellm, as many as is reasonable) to get involved in at least the planning and design, if not the implementation. Let me get back to you all in a couple of weeks, and in the meantime, nohup & it to the back of my brain and let that work on it. -- Paul Robinson