From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 24 23:12:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B6B106564A for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:12:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeffreybouquet@yahoo.com) Received: from nm17-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm17-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.91.212]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 87E888FC1F for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:12:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [98.139.91.61] by nm17.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2012 23:12:27 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.51] by tm1.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2012 23:12:27 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1051.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2012 23:12:27 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 345103.89707.bm@omp1051.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 71304 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Aug 2012 23:12:26 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1345849946; bh=6naTdoDVAsTywyi2bxSZ61ygxZThUJHBZ2W9+LNObDo=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nTAA6Lw3VXMNdavyyXRMaYCJf0pWJnD7lOIxrs/bE2Wg2YqqlSvO1nf1OSSDSP6M1ski2E27uk16d0ZSLgx9R/+0Cp0BxoBKwfn6inMpe+ovjvkN0iM2pZIgYXl38P2Dg2t2qkT6mUM3Rp3RD/4WKgkkm4uZOYFfxPG9McZwDmk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=gm5gFx366+d3R2ZSbsZD8JUd9P6+DNYBir0oezXDkru75xQYE4ERXKhVGTe4I/vNyjmZLVp2dJ2rq9UaYYMZSy5oKQNbJZG837Qs/VMJiw3We1x8Uv+7EbJPbX8lhTMnOk5LGf+scdkhOn8dycezF93Y0CWGOYVn68z/ak/Ckq4=; X-YMail-OSG: ZPDDwboVM1lxoQ98j6lnlBr484oIY1FwRKAWPBKKx.6Zl_1 _4.NP8vY53N9ZTbFHTvVYaD2tkXpy1Q.nFTFS1_AudjRkzoVJI_jSpmDmB7W wVfPUed7M77nV1FsOs2UxoDde72.tyWkpXxHUGWGn5DfVugRnPtBfzY3MR7I c.J23ySS5YJlCEHEhUiXuw0bW.c0nMxPnt7ejdAbPSwlUZ25VjlDAQ4iehLE nmqLyJIyBjc6NLINendYawK8km6TWyoMrJ25sdJ9YO9bFzVEDa_0bbXw3sGI jUidiwlIxyt1JAFjhprCkF8yJQ8hwCNMCasXGINw6JAXeJw74Senh_SHtX94 9wLoMTazNX_aPGMfqk306XJlTZROEeoKGPuiF6ol0ZhST3dU6eF0OkWUR0mV wyMT5fBvTurVfGE9krlIYFQMuq3lTNg4cmkfTk5iTc5azkQw5EoWKwTWrPEy CnlFSYFz7M8VhgQZ8AQTAXYYW Received: from [66.92.43.99] by web111314.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:12:26 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/15.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.121.416 Message-ID: <1345849946.58806.YahooMailClassic@web111314.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:12:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Bouquet To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Fw: RE: pkgng default release schedule (s/ABI/API/g ...typo) X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:12:33 -0000 s/ABI/API/g Sorry! =0A=0A=0A=0A--- On Fri, 8/24/12, Jeffrey Bouquet wrote:=0A=0A> From: Jeffrey Bouquet =0A> Subject: RE: pkgng default release schedule (contd...)=0A> To= : "Chris Rees" =0A> Date: Friday, August 24, 2012, 1:28 = PM=0A> Comments below. I've no idea how to=0A> fix the quoting system so I'= ll try to do it manually, Maybe=0A> in a few weeks... it is webmail and its= -all-text seems no to=0A> function at the moment.=0A> =0A> --- On Fri, 8/24= /12, Chris Rees =0A> wrote:=0A> =0A> From: Chris Rees =0A> Subject: RE: pkgng default release schedule (contd...= )=0A> To: "Jeffrey Bouquet" =0A> Date: Friday, Au= gust 24, 2012, 10:57 AM=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> On 24 Aug 2012 15:37, "Jeffrey B= ouquet" =0A> wrote:=0A> =0A> >=0A> =0A> > Comment= s inline below...=0A> =0A> >=0A> =0A> > --- On Fri, 8/24/12, Chris Rees =0A> wrote:=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> From: Chris= Rees =0A> =0A> >> Subject: RE: pkgng default release sc= hedule=0A> (contd...)=0A> =0A> >> To: "Jeffrey Bouquet" =0A> =0A> >> Cc: "FreeBSD Mailing List" ,= =0A> "freebsd-current" =0A> =0A> =0A> >> Date:= Friday, August 24, 2012, 4:37 AM=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> On 24= Aug 2012 11:08, "Jeffrey Bouquet" =0A> >>wrote:= =0A> =0A> >> >=0A> =0A> >> > A few more reasons (unless I have not seen=0A>= some relevant >>documentation to the contrary) to not=0A> mandate pkgng as= the default...=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> Why don't you phrase th= is as "How can one ..." so=0A> you sound less >>negative?=0A> =0A> >>=0A> = =0A> >Please fix your mailer's quoting.=0A> It is webmail. Sorry. I am fixi= ng part of it as I go along=0A> but I've no idea if it is making it worse..= .=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> >> I am unequivocably opposed (reasoning below=0A> inc= luded, after I wrote >>this paragraph; ) to pkg=0A> mandated as the default= , until convinced=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> otherwise, and trying to sound ni= cer, by making the=0A> sentences >>shorter.=A0 If that is=0A> =0A> >>=0A> = =0A> >> stubborness-from-ignorance, I=A0 sincerely=0A> apologize, in advanc= e.=A0 But >>I see no one else=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> vocalizing opposition= at the moment... vs those in=0A> favor, and am >>simply in my=0A> =0A> >>= =0A> =0A> >> view voicing arguments to delay the not-inevitable=0A> depreca= tion of >>/var/db/pkg...=0A> =0A> >Possibly because your attitude as I ment= ion above makes=0A> people think =0A> >you're trolling.=0A> =0A> I am disma= yed by the thought that the package management=0A> system is=0A> broken.=A0= We have the Makefile directories (starting=0A> point) /var/db/pkg=0A> dire= ctories (registration feature) portmaster/portmanager/=0A> custom .sh/=0A> = portupgrade (automation feature) and the installed binaries=0A> (end point)= .=0A> Pkg introduces an ABI making=0A> portmaster/portmanager/portupgrade/t= o-be-portupgrades/.sh=0A> costlier to implement in time, ABI experience, = =0A> and maybe buggier.=A0 Meanwhile, the registration feature=0A> (present= in=0A> BSD, absent AFAIK in most Linux, abstracted in Windows),=0A> would = be=0A> abstracted in BSD also.=A0 =0A> =0A> Suppose I rightly viewed that t= he ports tree was not working=0A> well=0A> enough for the majority of users= .=0A> =0A> There is a new tool, portsnap-textonly (psto)=0A> Its use is eas= y!=0A> psto view makefile editors nano=0A> psto configure editors nano=0A> = psto view pkgplist editors nano=0A> psto view editors=0A> =0A> I'm fully ju= stified in putting it somewhere (a port.)=0A> It is only when I remove the = actual ports tree to a=0A> xml-based or=0A> sql-based repository, that I be= gin to de-minimalistic=0A> de-potentially-better =0A> Freebsd, and fork it = to something that only may serve better=0A> a subset=0A> (however large) of= its users. Even if I obtain the=0A> majority opinion that it is expedient,= and=0A> even if it *is* actually expedient for the=0A> majority, I'd maybe= want to quell the=0A> concerns of those very reluctant to pursue the parad= igm=0A> shift that=0A> it is *not* in their best interests... or do more co= ding=0A> beforehand=0A> to compensate for the impact it may have upon their= use of=0A> the operating system. =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> >> Cer= tainly not trying to "just complain" for the=0A> sake of impeding >progress= . =0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> > Nowadays, one can save time by installing two= =0A> ports which >officially or unofficially conflict, and=0A> have /var/db= /pkg entries for >both, and even=0A> =0A> >> > local workarounds (for insta= nce, moving the=0A> duplicate binary >elsewhere before the second install)= =0A> (Perchance removing the line in >the Makefile).=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >= > Currently you can still do this, at least until=0A> STAGEDIR.=0A> =0A> = =0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> STAGEDIR? =0A> >Not of concern at the = moment, but it's in the FreeBSD=0A> wiki if you're >interested.=0A> Thank y= ou for the information.=0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> > A failed "make install (regist= er)", one can=0A> check the /var/db/pkg/ >>directory(ies) to double=0A> che= ck visually to what extent it did NOT >>fail.=0A> =0A> >> > Similarly for a= failed "make deinstall=0A> (unregister)"...=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >>=0A> = =0A> >> The error messages are perfectly clear.=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> "Th= e error messages are perfectly clear", yes, once=0A> double-checked >>again= st=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> the directories in /var/db/pkg to make them=0A> = less-terse.=A0 If you mean >>pkg's =0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> error messages,= maybe *this* trepidation is from=0A> inexperience with >>pkg.=0A> See belo= w.=0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> > pkgdb -F to fixup stale dependencies and=0A> resolv= e dependency >>information.=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> Unnecessary= with pkgng.=0A> =0A> I'll take your word for it.=A0 Thanks for the=0A> inf= ormation. Howsoever, I've=0A> encountered stale dependencies with pkgdb -F = after=0A> portmaster had=0A> fixed them up, so I am a little skeptical.=0A>= =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> Okay, I am unaware.=0A> =0A> >Let me say this once mor= e.=0A> >You have no right to complain about something until=0A> you've prop= erly >tested it.=A0 =0A> =0A> I am not trying to complain about pkg(ng).=A0= I am trying=0A> to dissuade=0A> the deprecation of /var/db/pkg/ as a plain= -text hook into=0A> the =0A> registration of ports/packages.=A0 =0A> =0A> T= here is no way I can properly test pkg and a deprecated=0A> /var/db/pkg=0A>= without more time and effort.=A0 If you mean to say I=0A> should first in= stall pkg fully on a machine and compare the=0A> =0A> result to what I am d= oing now, I decided a few hours ago to=0A> do just=0A> that.=A0 However, I'= ve a lot of other stuff to do so it=0A> is not a=0A> priority.=A0 If you me= an to say I should delay stuff like=0A> this posting=0A> until I've tested = further, I'll apologize here and=0A> now.=A0 But it is=0A> easier and poten= tially more informative to others not=0A> decided, in=0A> my humble opinion= , to read these views, if I state them=0A> politely =0A> enough, than for m= e to write them down as a draft to post=0A> later.=0A> Maybe I will benefit= by someone refuting them to my=0A> satisfaction,=0A> and saving you the ef= fort of another reply.=0A> =0A> =0A> =A0 =0A> =0A> =0A> >You will find that= most of the scripts you currently use=0A> are to >compensate for brokennes= s in pkg_install and are=0A> no longer necessary.=A0 =0A> =0A> Most of the = scripts I use are to upgrade, I've way too many=0A> ports=0A> installed to = ever use the pkg_install command without a=0A> front end.=0A> The only ones= I usually use are pkgdb -F and pkgdb -u and =0A> portmaster -d -B -P -i -g= ...=A0 and the shell does most=0A> of the=0A> heavyweight work, as I save = history across reboots.=A0=0A> The only=0A> breakage I am aware of are the = usual ones, ports waiting to=0A> be=0A> fixed, conflicts, clang vs gcc, dif= ficultes in fetching=0A> should=0A> it be an https://, etc.=0A> =0A> =0A> = =0A> > Scripting your way around bad design decisions is=A0 not=0A> a way t= o run >an OS.=0A> Where is the bad design decision specifically?=A0 I view= =0A> an ABI into the=0A> plain-text port registration as a cure worse than = the=0A> disease for=0A> the majority of cases.=A0 I see Good Design specifi= cs...=0A> portmaster=0A> for example.=A0=A0=A0I can run several in several= =0A> xterms at once and they=0A> hardly ever collide...=0A> =0A> =0A> >> > = A proven method in the portmaster manpage to=0A> reinstall all ports.=0A> = =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> You want to talk to the portmaster author about=0A> tha= t.=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> I never use the procedure, I've too many ports.= =A0=0A> But others may be >>interested.=0A> >OK, please sort out your own v= iews, then start worrying=0A> about other >people.=0A> Again, I've tried to= state them nicely above, and put forth=0A> a few=0A> reasons why I am stat= ing them now rather than later. =0A> =0A> >> *Anything* that circumvents=A0= portmaster's=0A> fine-grained updating of >>the =0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> e= ach-port-its-own-database-directory-in-var-db-pkg,=0A> which is=A0 a >>grea= t help=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> to myself daily, is in my view, unwarranted,= =0A> untimely, bloat, >>contrary to the=0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> keep-it-sim= ple port-upgrade tools "fixing it when=0A> it breaks" >>methodologies that= =0A> =0A> >>=0A> =0A> >> exist at the present time, etc. =0A> =0A> >You mea= n, let's cobble together yet more hacks and=0A> continue to have a >package= management system that is=0A> fifteen years out of date?=0A> I view portma= ster, used above, as=0A> cutting-edge.=A0=A0=A0If the /var/db/pkg=0A> flat-= file is out-of-date vs an ABI into an equivalent,=A0=0A> I see that=0A> as = a fork away from minimalism, and as a disservice to=0A> ground-up=0A> based= port-management tools.=A0 =0A> If you are trying to say that the pkg based= =0A> port-registration will=0A> work less-as-a-hack, than portmaster and sh= ell scripting, it=0A> could=0A> be that I may switch to that view after tes= ting, in which=0A> case I=0A> am fully too dismissive of pkg's potential.= =A0 But in my=0A> real-world=0A> experience so far, I view it as only a rem= ote possibility,=0A> since=0A> it is not the day-to-day stuff I view as par= amount, but the=0A> =0A> recourses one has upon unexpected failures when re= building,=0A> say,=0A> perl from one version to another.=A0 I've no reports= of=0A> someone =0A> attempting that with pkg so far...=0A> =0A> =0A> >I'm = sorry that you enjoy messing with these files and=0A> are not going to >be = able to do it in future.=A0 The hard=0A> fact is that the people who do >th= e work in bringing you=0A> ports are sick of the inadequacies of the >curre= nt=0A> system, and are improving it.=0A> =0A> Statement taken as an opinion= unless specifically elaborated=0A> upon... I kind of have *fun* doing a = =0A> cat ffil_0812 | grep p5 | awk '{print $1}' | xargs -J %=0A> portmaster= -d -B -P -i -g --update-if-newer % =0A> ...typing only a few characters in= it (from history), rinse,=0A> repeating=0A> for /devel/, /ftp/ ... etc... = whereas before portmaster=0A> existed,=0A> portupgrade would upon the lower= -power machines monopolize=0A> the CPU, etc=0A> since I can *automate* it a= t a machine I am not physically=0A> at during most of the several hours...= =A0 I see that as a=0A> not-inadequacy... it=0A> is, again, the command-lin= e (non-abi) hook into the=0A> registration details=0A> that speeds (here) f= ix of breakages.=A0 So maybe define=0A> inadequacy =0A> more explicitly?=0A= > =0A> >Do some research and try it out.=A0 You'll be amazed.=0A> =0A> As I= mentioned, I may be able to install it on one=0A> machine.=A0 But =0A> I a= m very pessimistic that its abstraction layer will be=0A> compensated for b= y any more-than-empirical improvement...=0A> Thanks=0A> for the optimism th= ough.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> >Chris=0A> =0A>