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([2607:fb90:82a9:a99e:b851:5f32:3f1d:bd9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d11sm84271952pgi.25.2019.01.05.10.52.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 05 Jan 2019 10:52:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) From: Enji Cooper X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16C104) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:52:50 -0800 Cc: Cy Schubert , Wojciech Puchar , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <201901032228.x03MSxkq087945@slippy.cwsent.com> To: Alan Somers X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: D40778E267 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=U0tamfDv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yaneurabeya@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::544 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yaneurabeya@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.35 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.33)[-0.326,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.95)[0.951,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.71)[-0.709,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.24)[ip: (5.13), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.19), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 18:52:55 -0000 > On Jan 3, 2019, at 14:51, Alan Somers wrote: >=20 >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert wr= ote: >>=20 >> In message , Wojciech >> Puchar wr >> ites: >>>>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*= >>>>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said >>>>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a >>>>> resounding NO, save for bloat. >>>>=20 >>>> And this is why one reason people say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93FreeBSD is d= ying=C3=A2=E2=82=AC . >>>>=20 >>> dying for whom? >>=20 >> Not to answer this question but to think strategically: >>=20 >> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of >> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines, >> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today, >> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations >> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux >> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their >> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is >> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being >> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for >> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of >> supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running >> microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a >> virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and >> containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public >> cloud and back again easily. >>=20 >> Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is >> containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more. >> And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it >> are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost >> effectiveness of standing up applications. >>=20 >> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the >> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language >> Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating >> importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a >> PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position >> FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and >> Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports. >>=20 >> Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator >> and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in >> addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other >> virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or >> FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one >> or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster. >>=20 >> This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future. >>=20 >> Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind. >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Cheers, >> Cy Schubert >> FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org >>=20 >> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. >=20 > FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think > there's any reason to put it into base. +1. Kubernetes should remain as a port, given the development process that Fa= cebook and Google use being out of step with the BSDs (backwards compatibili= ty to the degree that BSD wants is generally a lower priority item). > The interesting thing about > Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed, > Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian > Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji > is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. Sidenote: not wanting to do an rc(8) replacement. More like a system monitor= of sorts, paralleling what devd does with device events and such. > These are the > kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the > language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports. > If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base > system, it might be Lua. Lua=E2=80=99s already in base =E2=80=94 the bootloader is being rewritten fr= om forth to Lua. > Though high level, its embeddable and nicely > complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and > it even in the NetBSD kernel. And Linux kernel for that matter, iirc. It=E2=80=99s a wonderful, stripped d= own language. It=E2=80=99s just a bit awkward to write because its lexicogra= phy/grammar matches pure mathematics as opposed to many other C-like languag= es. Thanks :), -Enji=