From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:50:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F2132ED2D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:50:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jNy151Y1z4Xnk for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:50:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MHndY-1jfVJJ3Riw-00EuYJ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:48 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:46 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:KMBZ1iY6xiOeaZXeUoyhtghBx9qcWJMqAEIo1JeiYD8fi9LLAQ6 e+bvjdXjHu7XXFvaRMcbjvN2djAbedMUJIkWRtOiThAV2HqrzYgqqO8w9JnN1kDb9oDhms/ pXLBEzXmE3IWRwicgQAxOo7tTO6YPRD4uDwoUU1sF0HaaF8G8ecsqH77qp/yhInZfs9qCPT RhpZ3ggXNsNxAFTIFMb9w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:k/LbFeiS0oo=:uwYcQ68Soutv5kqj0C5GHx FSVwPlFQ9oIEtYukcBO6A+xffbJ94VnMNigUOUymsdiuyFQXMhfzQyIQjFOSPWB0JCPXceQ23 65BSpXb69Xgc0W78P9qj264hiqPX7sjnj1qXlxMXJpfIklUb9iARe06cjIAEoxH40t11gpjDi jNBG6oKCNuj/NZ3zTnSmlNQQIWVzyppagsKvtt+QgMqeWt24uG6+B5I6ChGcrel7QLQVcljt/ M9WL8zYPMip50L4e1IUMSws7lJG6o9AfyT+BzPTviBCwf6F0hjo2zTDFRk49EFu1ySKVu5pB1 IEfLimQNaTCon1D/blOpvrwplqZob+pR4GJ+nCWj9mpXBmWWVK5QdJ3bRhYyHc3vb9FLFQ2BS x2EPh8IHVg9Qi+2BavsSaVa6isyBqKxDzmddJZDaV1tmVrnUZUjDvGCZC3q7fe+qO0hsxk1yc Lj92l9mKrwM9at9Ya3jwfSmNStx24YShZ3g87lyQJ5PqbSHuVetU00gMHQCGhFqSJeQ7YcCjb VoogF1ZI/Ne3PGITHVZcDyb/cjrn8jerlI7VRyw2b4Q1r/sEOloiGUq5PhU3Ldiv9z2inM5oF uFvWx5eKQ1ErPk5A+ICujY3QH9d2cFQ5ikb/FJD5zaf6RJSCndHFgmD0A+fWIriWuAM6LnhXh S+WvAiaSk/k8e72mahWVfhkgyDXGGXKEDEv6jAcvsmOjwlEEn4fgCCvWezet16nr2Wfe9uDwk YPApK5SVza3jxOUZ+pFdWB85RSp1BMDSewjeudWM2wFvn9YcurqDdp6l6SHYe0AQ9+UqvwVSP 59TfOXKXKy4HLKim/XWEQq9nM0PXkMtjZoKNXzk9j7BgomBPRiYj6d1sLKSGO/DSZ+XhJIH X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jNy151Y1z4Xnk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:50:50 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:24:43 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:56:58 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: > >> > However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient > >> > it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why > >> > sometimes replies are send "twice"… > > > >Attention! Here we have a severe case of "MUA ate my homework"! > > > >Your MUA did modify (!) my original message, so the quote is no > >longer correct (as it imples something that I didn't write). > > > >Aspect 1 is no big problem: It removed my newlines and put > >everything into one long line. This is no big deal with > >regular text ("paragraph text"), but would be with code, > >or something laid out to be a table or a diagram in text. > > I think that could also be attributed to the fact that many users > configure their MUSs to use a specific font and/or font size that > affects the final display of the received email. I prefer a larger font > myself since my eye sight isn't what it was 20 years ago. > > >Aspect 2, and that _is_ a problem: I wrote "...", which is > >three periods, and your MUA turned it into "…", which is > >an UTF-8 ellipsis. > > If UTF was used to begin with, that problem would evaporate. But it wasn't. It started (at least here) with ye olde boring 7-bit ASCII. > >Aspect 2a, a sign of inconsistency, is that your MUA did > >not change my " double quotation marks (inch symbols) into > >correct typographical quotation marks. And how could it? > >Which rules would apply? I'm in Germany, so our quotation > >marks are "two down" and "two up", while in English, you > >usually how "two in" and "two out", something like this, > >incorrectly simplified: > > > > ,,The german style.'' > > > > ``The english style.'' > > I believe the 'American' style would be: > U+201C and U-201D : “American style” > > In any case, I have not seen your 'magical character transpositions" in > my everyday use. Perhaps it is a systemic problem with your MUA. Note: I was replying to @lbutlr whose MUA malquoted my initial message, i. e., it said "Polytropon commented" but I didn't use the characters the header claimed I did - it used "…" in _my_ message where I wrote "...". So it's not _my_ MUA which has a problem. Check the headers and you'll find this confirmed. If I wish to use "..." instead of "…", and I use "those" quotes instead of “those”, then I do so for a good reason. I don't have to explain or justify that reason. I just depend on the MUA to keep my intention, and Sylpheed did. However, @lbutlr's MUA did something nonstandard (i. e., modifying original message content in a very selective and inconsistent way). If I intend something to be typographically perfect, I don't use email for that, because it just doesn't work. (Similarly, the web isn't "pixel-perfect" - you can try to get near that goal, but you won't always arrive there.) Similarly, if I include things like µV or kΩ or maybe even Яблоко, no MUA, on _no_ side of the conversation, should change that into something else _and_ claiming that it's what _I_ wrote. Oh, and yes, “American style” is the correct form I wanted to mention. The German ones are „those“. But you can also have one of the «other» ones. :-) If MUAs start changing original message content and attribute that to the original author, what's next? Changing words? > >And there are of course differences in AE and BE. You can > >also see that I used tabs and empty lines for format my > >reply. If a MUA eats those, big problem. > > > >A typographically skilled person will even say that using > >something like “that“ is wrong (uses same symbol for start > >and end of quoting). > > > >Similarly, MUAs could mess with the use of dashes ("-" or > >"–") or apostrophes ("'" or "’"). > > > >All those considerations of course lead to breaking my > >carefully crafted message in plain ASCII (not even using > >ISO-8859-1) and lifting it into the UTF-8 multibyte universe > >with all its unsolved questions. ;-) > > I use UTF-8 and find it solves problems, not creates them. Depends on which side of the program you're sitting at. ;-) > >Oh, and MUAs don't have to be smart. It's much better if the > >people using them are smart. That's fully sufficient. :-) > > And rarely seen in the wild. :) That must be the "shortage on IT experts" everyone is raging about... ;-) > >If I remember correctly, "reply to all" has never been a real > >problem on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Users can set up filtering > >rules to remove duplicate messages they might receive during a > >thread, or remind their counterparts to pay attention to use > >the "reply to mailing list" button. > > Unfortunately, some sneaky 'repliers' include the intended recipient's > name in the "To:" field that complicates filtering messages. Yes, that is the kind of problem I was talking about. It's not just the correct construction and preservation of headers like From:, To:, Cc:, and Reply-To:, it's also the "metadata" of thread-keeping (references). > >Sadly, Sylpheed has a prominent "reply to all" button, whereas > >"reply to mailing list" is a drop-down element next to the > >regular "reply" button. So you can guess which one gets used > >the most. > > Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined > "To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally > eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to > properly configure it. Nobody configures MUAs these days. In a web-driven world, users tend to keep using the defaults of the provider. The same applies to application MUAs where the defaults aren't checked and adjusted to match real use cases. That's why default settings are so important: They can change whole generations' views about what's "normal" and what's not... Nobody expects the spanish inquisition. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...