From owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Wed Aug 31 19:16:18 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC5EBCA312 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2016 19:16:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmacybsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22d.google.com (mail-it0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D30E0225 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2016 19:16:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmacybsd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id e124so62322069ith.0 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2016 12:16:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=PTk/823zvqvP3mDNcwENoWSQLKLdyU+cZhTJXvrUH9c=; b=eECsIoZ3GH7FFHQYv6vJUqi/gaj6nynHc1Puks3zdymhOWwlj9LhUfGoourmggQW6n /xoRBv4RMqVUlV0+M6hgLAh4PRhkJRH1l7+ozxjjGl+nlLfaVB8SMzMWxJ+xGATMJZlH sBhikaISbIPIPJ5mNFXuoDMELqZbg+Umzco7UAt4FYYb7JJDMGWabxuqTnvfMa65ktBE hJyzx3RYM0bKnE6oQZamYS1yeA+ESRtZSKDUb+Ipypcq989Kjg5iI9mJE0TAXW9q78fu xtxTl5GW0PRs/zyxFr4Ld0prt5kew+HECkWTkSTBY5U7FYsmXdjIEu+251RmbJvBToqJ BvEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PTk/823zvqvP3mDNcwENoWSQLKLdyU+cZhTJXvrUH9c=; b=IqFgIeaO4tNoWBB4hXWCoIOUG7m7m7hcAd0uNReyUJIigvnIfTi6QsH7yGtYYPcFH3 W6zFuXbyw0MN9ltXMEyg6xO8oi42oTPwyF3BlUbTGnuiKZO6ZwvkRqog6QkDJrwGAR8U JzLBDj5Viqy7GSc2DaJXhRrfFMC5JpD1NoZbawMbxiXkv/4Pu/nVcsAioANG3zCg85YA M4bsWm0OTXxATleGlzVzaFPqQ6M83V//K2Z13rUb3SQ0+pv2iNDFetYPbj+G+jRjzViW pFODfXiM1/7KDkgofnybn7DLJyhk+RRVrcX0ggG7MZtL/oIfNE1NQB98k70vf3Ust+Td NJUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AE9vXwNC+A1/87/ZudY4LMmDPG4KBXj4wPX9FdBDM3FvdD6KGzuQiU4VO716Mo3pEupU+rnAgbliZt5ObxFYYQ== X-Received: by 10.36.43.70 with SMTP id h67mr34770204ita.57.1472670977254; Wed, 31 Aug 2016 12:16:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: kmacybsd@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.143.11 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2016 12:16:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160831133642.GA25574@lonesome.com> References: <20160822120215.GV22212@zxy.spb.ru> <20160823110159.GU18643@e-new.0x20.net> <20160824045558.18c86764@X220.alogt.com> <3234db29c228879cc473deec0b09568c@schema31.it> <20160826132059.63c23ee5@X220.alogt.com> <20160828060601.08ea91a8@X220.alogt.com> <20160830074656.18bfaf05@X220.alogt.com> <20160831133642.GA25574@lonesome.com> From: "K. Macy" Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 12:16:16 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: y0Xsr8xc9k0UAxsGpv4nKm6QyEY Message-ID: Subject: Re: Benchmarks results for Compilers on FreeBSD 11 To: Mark Linimon Cc: Erich Dollansky , Andrea Brancatelli , =?UTF-8?Q?Fernando_Herrero_Carr=C3=B3n?= , freebsd-stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.22 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 19:16:18 -0000 On Wednesday, August 31, 2016, Mark Linimon wrote: > I'll demur just a bit on your points. > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 08:51:02PM -0700, K. Macy wrote: > > "we need a compiler to build the system" (a prebuilt package does that > > just fine), > > Well, yes, for a tier-1 machine; and one that is connected to the network. > > > I can't speak for the whole universe of users, but I think it's safe > > to say that most users are not power users who individually configure > > ports tailored to their needs. > > We've certainly tried to provide a migration path away from that, but I > don't think anyone has statistics about how far along we are. IMHO we > can't assume it's 100%, or maybe even 80%. > > > I think my experiences on Ubuntu [...] are illustrative. > > A number of years ago Ubuntu and FreeBSD had barely overlapping audiences: > end-users and developers. With all the improvements to pkg and tier-1 > packages I hope that is changing -- the goal of expanding the reach is > why I supported all the changes I saw being made. > > But for me an attraction has always been "you can build it out of the box", > even if I rarely do it (e.g. I am not working in the kernel/driver area), > > mcl > Can clang actually bootstrap from something like lcc? As far as I can tell you need a fairly advanced C++ compiler just to build that compiler in src - which already needs to be installed. It's not exactly bootstrapping from Bourne shell. So I'm not sure "it's self-hosting" is even true, not to mention that you needed a network connection to get src in the first place. Thus the whole argument strikes me as circular if not outright deceptive. -M