Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:30:24 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes <darklogik@pittgoth.com> To: Jeremiah Gowdy <jeremiah@sherline.com> Cc: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Charles Burns <burnscharlesn@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Advocacy help for CS professor Message-ID: <3C9B7840.6000409@pittgoth.com> References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322111245.GA26042@hades.hell.gr> <3C9B571F.1090101@pittgoth.com> <001101c1d1c7$67cf4ae0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey>
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Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >>This right here, and I don't really understand why, really really >>upsets me... Why doesn't MS have Marshall Kirk McKusick? I mean, this >>guy is smart! Simple, because many of the so-called best programmers do >>not really want to work for MS... Hell, even I outsmarted the MS tech >>support many times over... And if the hire the ``best'' then why was >>their DNS software misconfigured? Their OWN software!!! By their OWN >>trained technicians!!! Surely you remember the 3-days of downtime that >>hit a few months ago where Microsoft admitted that they misconfigured >>their own software... And it took them how many days to get it working, >>they finally gave up and sent it over to another company, who has been >>running it perfectly fine since... Read more at Wired.com, just search >>for Microsoft, and it was a few months ago... >> > > There is a big difference between admins and programmers chief (except for > those of us who are both). Poking holes in Microsoft's administrators and > tech support reps doesn't say very much about their programming staff. The > truth is, Microsoft picks up quite a bit of the world's best programming > talent. Whether they use that talent wisely, that's a management issue. > However, I don't think you're in good standing here when you knock on very > talented people, who have completed excellent Computer Science programs at > respectable universities. I know that's not all there is to being a good > software engineer, but I believe you need to give them the benefit of the > doubt and not accuse them of incompetence based on their unrelated > other-department coworkers. And as for any incompetence you can point out, > keep in mind how much management influences coding (depending on where you > work). If the management of their software engineers sucks, they're going > to have a hard time putting out good code. But to be honest, Microsoft DOES > put out awesome software sometimes. The Age of Empires series of games was > flawless and made a mockery of the pathing engine in most other overhead > strat games. Office 2000/XP is the cornerstone of a majority of businesses > today. Whether you like the program or not, you have to admit, some > powerful coding went into that. If Microsoft's programmers were as stupid > as everyone tries to make them out to be, they wouldn't have any successful > products. I just don't like to see people blindly bashing the _programmers_ > at Microsoft, for what are most likely management issues. I like to think > I'm a computer scientist first, and all of the people in the computer > science field are my colleagues. Other computer scientists are worthy of > some respect until you find some real evidence that they're not. That you > outsmarted MS Tech Support, and that they outsourced their DNS, are not very > good reasons to knock programmers. There are some valid reasons to bash > Microsoft programmers, and I'm sure someone will point them out, but you > haven't found them yet. > > I don't mean any personal offense to you, but I just find empty bashing of > software engineers to be very distasteful. If software engineers were the > beginning and the end of all software development, then you could knock on > them. However, with management, marketing, design teams, etc etc etc, it's > a group effort. My point here was not really to bash them, but to prove the arguement, ``this world is capable of having alot of smart people that do not current or who may never work at Microsoft. I am sorry if you took offence however, bashing them wasn't really my point. Looking at it from an even more different angle, you could say ``with over a million programmers, Microsoft cannot have the best, its just a impossible feat'' I do not see any one company being capable of grabbing up the best of the breed throughout the world... If the professor in question is a programmer, and if he is really good, ask him if Microsoft has ever offered him a job. If he is a really good programmer, and by the way he sounds (seems to make himself up to be the best) why not ask him that... Many times you can turn a situation around to prove a point to otherwise ignorant people, example from today at work, the monopoly thing came up, and a coworker said ``well, thats biz, to either buy out a company and take their clients, or to scheme up some sort of company team effort to put another company out of biz is perfectly fair play'' and I said, reverse the situation, you would not like it, if another company sprung up down the street, and then bought us out, which may cost you that job you value. Maybe it is how things work, but I find it very unfair... I also found it very aggrovating last week when I called IBM to purhcase a laptop and they refused to ship a laptop with either linux or a formatted harddrive! It had to come with WindowsXP, and I replied very friendly ``I do not want XP, I want to buy a computer, I want my choice as a customer, can you provide me with my choice?'' and I got smacked with a very unfortunate no. I find that wrong, I find it ignorant, in America we are apperently to have the freedom of choice, if I do not want to pay that $100 (somewhere around there) for software that has no real use to me, why should I? > > >>I don't eat meat, but lets have some fun... WOW!! I guess we should all >>eat ball park hotdogs cause that one basket ball player eats them, and >>tells us that they are great... I'll tell myself whats great thank you >>very much... And apologies that this is a more american product >>marketing scheme, but this is the point i'm trying to make: >> >>Microsoft has a huge popularity with many of my In Real Life friends, >>mainly you hear them associated with things like ``money hungry'' and >>``unknowledgeable technicians'' and of course ``monopoly'' but the list >>goes on and on. >> > > Hahahha. Thank you, you've just brightened my day with a little humor. > > In one paragraph you are refusing to be a follower and allow marketing > techniques to make you eat a certain brand of hot dogs, but in the next > paragraph you're spouting what you hear Microsoft associated with. That > would be sad if it wasn't so funny. You'll decide for yourself what hot > dogs you're going to eat, but you'll let people tell you that Microsoft is > "bad." At least you have your priorities straight. (hot dogs > software) > > Actually no, the point i'll make here is (I will not let him tell me what to eat and I will not let people tell me that I must use Microsoft) My friends are mostly Linux users, but you don't see me using Linux (at least if you knew me in person)... I mean, sure, i'll go in with a bit of ms bashing because I don't like this, or that, but I won't let someone tell me what software to use. Just like my eating habits, people think i'm wierd because I don't eat meat, whats wrong with not eating meat? People do it all over the world, I am this way because its my choice. Maybe I should have retyped this to give more of an idea about my point, but I did not, and apologise that it did not come out to right. You are right (now that I reread that) I honestly should have said that told me a few times Linux is better... I don't like Linux, its my personal opinion, I don't like Microsoft, thats my personal opinion. And i'm straying off topic here, so i'll shut up ;) set topic > professor >>>>- OSS programmers could not possibly be as good as Microsoft >>>> > programmers, > >>>>because Microsoft sponsors such things as nat'l programming competitions >>>>and hires the winners/hires the best of class from top universities, >>>> > etc. > > > The statement (not made by the person I'm responding to), is obviously false > logic to anyone who is educated. You're making a statement, "OSS > programmers could not possibly be as good as Microsoft programmers", and > then backing it up by stating how Microsoft acquires good programmers. At > no time do you describe why that means OSS cannot have equally as good > programmers. I'm not sure if this is ad Ignorantiam or False Cause. Anyone > smarter than I am care to point out the fallacy of inductive logic in this > sentence? I don't see logic... How many people partake in these ``contests''? I really want to know. Does it include anyone who attends the university, what about graduates? What about people who did graduate already from say, last year? What about people who are still a senior in high school, but have been programming since their 9th grade year (my friend could, it is possible)? Surely this contest would be limited as only to be availible to only a few individuals... Although, I've never seen one of these so I am not really sure if they let anyone who wants to try take a turn... Don't forget the one sentance in the last email where the professor loves outlook express but will not use it in the field because of the security... That just really lost me ;) > > >>Backward compatibility!!! Where I work they wanted to throw XP on my >>main workstation (this one) which currently and unfortunatly has >>Windows 98. I'm scared to have XP on here, not just because its >>a resource hog and insecure, and the interface bugs me, but what if >>say, a boring day comes along and I want to play doom? Will doom work >>on XP (I've never tried it), will other windows programs that i've >>grown used to sigfaulting, sigfault in the same way on XP, or will it >>be worse... I know thats sort of a humorous answer, but hell... >> > > Well, since you're speaking somewhat out of (admitted) ignorance there, I'll > tell you, Windows XP is far more stable than Windows 98, and it will run > Doom just fine. Have a blast. > > I've used XP a little bit, maybe for complete newbies on windows, but not for me... I still cannot understand how, last time I installed it on a system, that their were avoer 20mb of updates! -- Tom (Darklogik) Rhodes www.Pittgoth.com Gothic Liberation Front www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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