From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Jan 5 19:14:32 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8542D141BB68 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:14:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98B818EE12; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:14:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id frOuguYza82YcfrOwgSLwz; Sat, 05 Jan 2019 12:14:30 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NNSrBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=heTAvR70AAAA:8 a=vAAu5E0nHuhBKyCdxI0A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=UrJ2pwYPfabwj1STkZPu:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BF8D45D3; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x05JERWD023739; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x05JEQL4023724; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:14:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901051914.x05JEQL4023724@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Enji Cooper cc: Alan Somers , Cy Schubert , Wojciech Puchar , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: Message from Enji Cooper of "Sat, 05 Jan 2019 10:52:50 -0800." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 11:14:26 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfFHE+cmvQB+AbRq2eSTVxtLNwXTkcbJS4ZOCwReDJ2p5z2mBH6uOBenNwQErVm6ySS9LqAwnzyhCHpSodADksjTWAdGM3N6j7UsK3tkd0lKxaR5EBlMp cvvJtUdHmEtOLvjxt1eFTyQSu1+FzyjRyDz/GNOT6Vlywqzb4YG94VhD0ZJxXpCM9Fu4WiU+fPtFqut6zvRvU7szYE5YBO41lJUYbryPTAKZkmPOJF4rlJYA pcCuuPmFGHVfHZxcXhEMn8h8085hx3YxvhcLCTy0W65Gx8PK4mZLytVY9IUO7nvndLPMyESwyee2iCodWcvgHQ== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 98B818EE12 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.26 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.924,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[139.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.63)[ip: (-3.65), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.45), asn: 6327(-1.96), country: CA(-0.09)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 19:14:32 -0000 In message , Enji Cooper writes : > > > > On Jan 3, 2019, at 14:51, Alan Somers wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert wro > te: > >> > >> In message , Wojciech > >> Puchar wr > >> ites: > >>>>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed* > >>>>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said > >>>>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a > >>>>> resounding NO, save for bloat. > >>>> > >>>> And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dying†. > >>>> > >>> dying for whom? > >> > >> Not to answer this question but to think strategically: > >> > >> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of > >> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines, > >> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today, > >> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations > >> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux > >> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their > >> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is > >> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being > >> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for > >> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of > >> supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running > >> microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a > >> virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and > >> containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public > >> cloud and back again easily. > >> > >> Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is > >> containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more. > >> And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it > >> are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost > >> effectiveness of standing up applications. > >> > >> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the > >> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language > >> Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating > >> importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a > >> PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position > >> FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and > >> Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports. > >> > >> Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator > >> and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in > >> addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other > >> virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or > >> FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one > >> or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster. > >> > >> This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future. > >> > >> Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Cheers, > >> Cy Schubert > >> FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org > >> > >> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > > > > FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think > > there's any reason to put it into base. > > +1. Kubernetes should remain as a port, given the development process that Fa > cebook and Google use being out of step with the BSDs (backwards compatibilit > y to the degree that BSD wants is generally a lower priority item). It's not a port yet but it will be. I prefer a smaller base relying on ports instead. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.