From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 8 07:52:12 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0001655 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 07:52:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mathias.Picker@virtual-earth.de) Received: from www94.your-server.de (www94.your-server.de [213.133.104.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D6AC2B95 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 07:52:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [77.21.137.108] (helo=android-1d2cc17ec3e7b317.fritz.box) by www94.your-server.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.74) (envelope-from ) id 1VTS5M-0007V1-7h; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:52:04 +0200 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <52519F61.6090506@lechindianer.de> References: <20131003084814.GB99713@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <524D6059.2000700@FreeBSD.org> <524DD120.4000701@freebsd.org> <20131003203501.GA1371@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004061833.GA1367@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004063259.GC72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004065753.GV82824@droso.dk> <20131004070158.GE72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004111256.GC98118@admin.xzibition.com> <52519F61.6090506@lechindianer.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [HEADSUP] Staging, packaging and more From: Mathias Picker Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:51:56 +0200 To: Pascal Schmid ,freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Message-ID: X-Authenticated-Sender: Mathias.Picker@virtual-earth.de X-Virus-Scanned: Clear (ClamAV 0.97.6/17948/Mon Oct 7 22:39:25 2013) X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 07:52:12 -0000 Pascal Schmid schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNE= D MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On 10/06/2013 07:21 PM, Bernhard Fr=C3=B6hlic= h wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ulrich Sp=C3=B6rlein >wrote: >>> 2013/10/4 Bryan Drewery : >>>> On= Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 09:01:58AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >>>>> On = Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:57:53AM +0200, Erwin Lansing wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, = Oct 04, 2013 at 08:32:59AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin >wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >= >>>>>>>>>> Please no devel packages=2E >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Seconded=2E >= >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What's wrong with devel packages? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It= complicates things for developers and custom software on >FreeBSD=2E The t= ypical >>>>>>>> situation that I see on most Linux platforms is a lot of >c= onfusion by people, why >>>>>>>> their custom software XYZ does not properl= y build - the most >common answer: they >>>>>>>> forgot to install a tremen= dous amount of dev packages, >containing headers, build >>>>>>>> tools and = whatnot=2E On FreeBSD, you can rely on the fact that if >you installed e=2E= g=2E >>>>>>>> libGL, you can start building your own GL applications withou= t >the need to install >>>>>>>> several libGL-dev, libX11-dev, =2E=2E=2E pa= ckages first=2E This is >something, which I >>>>>>>> personally see as a bi= g plus of the FreeBSD ports system and >which makes FreeBSD >>>>>>>> attrac= tive as a development platform=2E >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other e= nds, that makes the package fat for embedded >systems, that also makes >>>>= >>> some arbitrary runtime conflicts between packages (because they >both p= rovide the same >>>>>>> symlink on the =2Eso, while we could live with 2 ve= rsion at >runtime), that leads to >>>>>>> tons of potential issue while bui= lding locally, and that makes >having sometime insane >>>>>>> issues with d= ependency tracking=2E Why having =2Ea, =2Ela, =2Eh etc in >production serve= rs? It >>>>>>> could greatly reduce PBI size, etc=2E >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perso= nnaly I do have no strong opinion in one or another >direction=2E Should we= be >>>>>>> nicer with developers? with end users? with embedded world? Th= at >is the question to >>>>>>> face to decide if -devel packages is where w= e want to go or not=2E >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If we chose to go down that = path, at least we should chose a >different name as we've >>>>>> used the -= devel suffix for many years for developmental versions=2E >>>>>> >>>>>> I = must agree that it is one of the things high on my list of >things that irr= itate me >>>>>> with several Linux distributions but I can see the point fo= r for >embedded systems as >>>>>> well=2E But can't we have both? Create = three packages, a default >full package and split >>>>>> packages of -bin, = -lib, and even -doc=2E My first though twas to >make the full package >>>>= >> a meta-package that would install the split packages in the >background,= but that would >>>>>> probably be confusing for users at the end of the da= y, so rather >just have it be a real >>>>>> package=2E >>>>>> >>>>> I do l= ike that idea very much, and it is easily doable with stage >:) >>>> >>>> = +1 to splitting packages for embedded usage=2E >>> >>> -1 for the split, a= s it will not fix anybody's problem=2E >>> >>> On regular machines, disk s= pace is cheap and having to install more >packages is just annoying >>> to = users=2E Think of the time wasted that people are told to apt-get >libfoo-d= ev before they can >>> build anything from github, or similar=2E >>> >>> I= f you actually *are* space constricted on your tiny embedded >machine, what= the fuck are you >>> doing with the sqlite database and all the metadata a= bout >ports/packages anyway? Just rm >>> /usr/include and /usr/share/doc, /= usr/share/man, etc=2E when building >your disk image=2E But you >>> are doi= ng that already anyway, so this solves no actual problem for >you=2E >>> >= >> My two cents Uli >> >> I also don't see why we need to optimize our pac= kages for an embedded >environment that is >> usually very customized=2E Wo= uldn't it make more sense to provide some >proper port / packaging >> optio= ns/flags that help to optimize size of the packages without >touching heade= r files? People >> could use that flags and poudriere to build their packag= es together >with all their other >> compiler flags and cpu optimisations= =2E >> > >+1 > >As far as I can see Daniel Nebdal's approach ("WITH_DEV_FI= LES" flag, >and defaulting to "yes") >sounds promising=2E +1 This doesn'= t change things in the standard case and follows existing patterns, so I li= ke it, too=2E Mathias > >Pascal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: = GnuPG v2=2E0=2E21 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http= ://www=2Eenigmail=2Enet/ > >iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSUZ9hAAoJEAWefonBOgAfDlUP/3117hV= dZ6WhrygIGnctSb49 >V+i0SggAFxXuvFFYlkjexrWFpjMPN2H7vBtR9DVbLNwqb4En+mVj/LVY= 1ejS9TAQ >gj/nKlK6HNdVQWQD8qLfzFUAzWwnSBco/rIOiGkOrHuvFSUCTV5gPehoJ+Vg8Qnz = >dyUp5SByePNpY1MGMTJZh9gKWJFtTe8DcanDBCVL65rZf/eOVPyiMwlQK+Fy2AQj >OQgJxhkW= Jzvl5V9THsMGiSCzJ+9EMoC620F9WEs3MvO0Ky2zIercFJ2bDaks6CXn >arNTsqTT1zI0sZNGN= QMrnxYtQPgV3oCEAggj4ZOG0FkhmBkxWNOPUyahBUE/V8ds >tvLvugzVzqeaIJWg3IKDNEfGGh= 0ZnAMhUakUHyJPDhuCLgb498uwElesmgaSvlky >eotS4cWGVp2lquuf/xPRRl82K4ciozZi3mt= tRmrfoznK69p1HJbepCn9maIhFkii >WqLTjKVkeZ778is8mw8dom/Qb8OEj+XR6Vetq7cLg4Is= //zieKzSvMWm7QrW1dAI >zohAjP+lMP5d3TEmeVqvSZhQ9ticzqGGaW4U7zxxRZ0Y/zxkBwe3c= IBEpjTpnW9p >/a0DJ3JodVBo79N2JheIqweCK9RPn8rOK5HxujnWcJ3jbQAgCxOdLd9iyN6IxO= jI >3pHI9pO++Am9ReFvL/Uy >=3Dqm+q >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >___________= ____________________________________ >freebsd-ports@freebsd=2Eorg mailing l= ist >http://lists=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports >To unsubs= cribe, send any mail to >"freebsd-ports-unsubscribe@freebsd=2Eorg"