From nobody Mon Jul 20 10:27:44 2026 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4h3cDR5gh3z6lk2r for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2026 10:28:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4h3cDR316Gz46c9 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2026 10:28:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-2ced3386430so62658295ad.1 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2026 03:28:23 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1784543301; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20260327; b=W1/kYYKsHMyYeJ/HSzkSLraK05uDG7za1YlSG/BpLIJvNM4Kz+R+g5yFDkzuQohAeN xelsdk9K3junI5DY5cgxzPG4BTwkrQQkAUdmYqq+B4LgYq+RpH4Vy5NOtPTnSKTStp6F JTjOMqgJyMCeuTHyQ9gTkVB3qZeb0vkyoaSgF1jTR2tbZdZDRj2tpmlxWZc87f9+C3hR Yz87M26MivIryJzYlN1kQZBeNaWNqmZG34NlnpOO7R5FBt6Vwsod+HB8QqaWxp4b5F8B tSTdl9kAY6odtvigjFIni62lIk75g7IXVWteS+lmMWVgq/fi7SU2KTuePI2Ou4gX6J0P mdjg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20260327; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=NrfacUzAvVZb4xjarBRkil2VbyOBM65qTYkojmTdspU=; fh=6rL/xA3hY+ltXnJiFMW0fGRTYsbTvUo2BOTaahw/WtU=; b=d7T+3n5wmny3xQs9VL1jLhXUNJqT7ViDf79i6+rl4CJ2nuj9PjiX9ogp9iK4qLGNVU ramrtNQmG9/LtdWJ4IJ4PQzxS0696b6aVe80Db5GOlaa7WvRyxy6XKaysmVQgaCK5ntq XLonADYylB+/jZbYjG4MmNnu9aHLtJ88lqUXU1u6azOQ9DkysoWaFO7qYbDcDHrF2N74 29UDOq3N+sz8GNkUdWboPDFyML6Q4AlJ9MK+Xl6ljq7f1f7P98ZJxVPdTP4xGC1Qqtgb kGa2aHkSJkMqUfn4Lo5bIdDjTXbBaimQ8ZxuCMjcJ/iPQh+kXRgcz9r6CsUc9bIpCtya SGmw==; darn=freebsd.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20251104; t=1784543301; x=1785148101; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-type:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to :content-type; bh=NrfacUzAvVZb4xjarBRkil2VbyOBM65qTYkojmTdspU=; b=E9mkRkqcLvrBrai0GV024TW5LUtIMqnG7O3HQx74Hh3/M2f8MDq1hPLQ6HI0w99mfz AZjoq7Kqoge3VCYYiDF228/xaDJK74bWU4vH4DjPIWEPAjHbeipar740EH2CEH73eUjD LDpHPGze0BvjYwqE5dJag4gNV8wsuDjN6eYknIcs1E9u6MBBqXkB42ZlrtUCtyzSoWru 8/18Fbq6EWR5iOdizUvkteijpBH9arNKRt6DxpUmq5Asi+Ox1IOUHzZHOa5TknCrCFi7 dn2pNiiNkTt757briMt+h5sCy1Q+vs9iPLuQDqh7Xx0c5iTiRuNXjAzk4ULXVOVTgAwk OBlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20251104; t=1784543301; x=1785148101; h=content-type:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to:content-type; bh=NrfacUzAvVZb4xjarBRkil2VbyOBM65qTYkojmTdspU=; b=kTrvMGfESVTLc4BI/GUYNhnpAeNrxkEtSOexH0H7tEV/9epX1LN7tzAZKGfhAJfOor D0/8DOXoRyHpDrXSF0XCQ+Me+lsYdZ7VjPBgK0XCctJNaMDyVTv9qNXhsieaCHq03c/M 1UuG9bY6pnuGeD1t4drKs6CkI5flUAojtzoVhjYer84cwqosYOrKSXC7Bdrnmnj7c7uy BTO127Y7jrfPMx6djX1UlvNVvjU86Xf8+OaOxFppVSN4XULGT4lURfwYKp1JT+0dLmqh yeD8j0OPSjlyH3w4RjEax4jgz5xx53JCcjvEAO1hUrlKhYnx5oE/TZeuWlbxvDeAprHa +w4A== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AHgh+Ro3nBmoJSdWbNsMrXwg57J8MI01cysKJfZqih+v3eE1RhbYl0/66VY8d1UBr2Ki8uiXYEblWBQPLIt6QBtNG2s=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxTGz7VhlT82DSlEJ5JPbFFUZRHqpqkqJodDi1YnKCbJ5gP/91u DgzEFDKi9MApdrRx3SYX06QQ6dHEzbM7s35qXDrmth+oF61GojrJk6Niqxkrd6fRLKtZp+LK2/b ugYWO1I0FiDH56hCsr/mpAif06V5j9fo= X-Gm-Gg: AfdE7cnVH9Y6de0QR2NbYWFqE/QeQ/jgQC4JTUfUeD4C5v7dBvPsui9ne9y3stBPVs2 tGHu1HkqtHmtnnjIC68KEB6ScIY30VflZVd638B6qU13BE9D9qt0Iwt5+qPTksNhAU7r/KlKtt2 hXSBTVbEUV2juUS4wZ/e4DpbFuAVlM/Hmv22d7lNj2daagNIHthyIyRAf/E6VQ5WHFTnR6/YdKy MfEo6RuoI8IJMQgqHplJknzlXqSLHWeRFDxzk+jIR1v7NDLtcf3T3KTrSiAQztGqrCmyd/Brqly 1OiH1A7Uev6AnL5+XrLNP1VoPBRhhkol6AE1I6md7c/Tg/K5Mnp0JJLj5z5LrlvZ1GjVD6yJ5we 8QKt1KloVRwPIKE5BLNDpHEuP/MjZlKQPzbKuPJYz0I5xBr5B27cxTmy8Jgqt3IynMCfxeRDi+S ZP2wEZsBoRDsHcdGSCzhoacabLTTPYpescnUGTjQpcn+ZfEhN+q6iwN1JqWfUKM7g57gBQdzter SjjSUt9clyehRr/F+dqSATXX20zbj3ikH6ge11HgCjTV/FMY83XcoAs0JrF2Ba0YlioYo0S7p+j 5nOBkzvkOGbW X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e848:b0:2ce:fa3a:45f7 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-2cf3485b0d8mr150236865ad.16.1784543300659; Mon, 20 Jul 2026 03:28:20 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Owner: Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2026 12:27:44 +0200 X-Gm-Features: AUfX_mxTCyKiSsPrZA_l8GqRDa7BmJYKeXZRSEraKdGVw3iRz8wC81frtuWCsD8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Tragic State of FreeBSD Audio/Sound To: vester.thacker@fastmail.fm Cc: vermaden , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000085af870657085d7c" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4h3cDR316Gz46c9 X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Spamd-Bar: ---- --00000000000085af870657085d7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah,me too. I feel your frustration. That's also mine. Because I'm trying to fix the audio distorsions coming from the 4 inches display that I want to use in the FreeBSD based phone that I'm building. I'm working with Claude and I'm spending a lot of tokens asking Fable 5 to fix the problems. Report after report,it seems very hard to obtain a clean and robust sound. I imagine how hard it is to do it without using advanced AI. On Mon, Jul 20, 2026 at 11:55=E2=80=AFAM wrote= : > I understand the frustration behind this report. Audio failures are > difficult because the symptom is simple, a bad sound, while the cause can > exist anywhere from the driver to the application. When the system provid= es > no useful indication of where the failure occurred, debugging becomes > guesswork. > > I have encountered this same class of problem while working on audio > software. Awase started from the same motivation: I wanted an audio syste= m > that I could understand, control, and improve when something went wrong. = It > is intended to become a replacement for existing desktop audio stacks, bu= t > it is still in the early alpha stage. semasound handles audio processing > and playback. audiofs handles audio asset access. The separation is > deliberate because systems are easier to maintain when their > responsibilities and failure boundaries are clear. > > This does not solve the specific FreeBSD regression you describe today. A > new design still has to mature, gain users, and prove itself. However, it > represents one possible response to the larger problem: when existing > solutions become too difficult to debug or modify, building a simpler > system can be a practical path forward. > > The immediate problem remains localization. The important question is not > whether the fault is OSS or PulseAudio in isolation. The important questi= on > is where the failure first appears. The investigation should narrow the > path. Test direct device output. Test through user-space layers. Compare > players. Compare releases. Each result removes another possibility. > > The recording is valuable because it demonstrates that the failure exists= . > It gives developers something concrete to reproduce. The next step is to > gather enough information to identify the responsible component. > > I do not know whether the cause is related to how many developers use > FreeBSD as a desktop system. There may be several contributing factors, > including how desktop issues are prioritized and who takes ownership of > them. I do know that regressions on common hardware deserve attention. A > ThinkPad T480 is not an unusual machine. A desktop operating system depen= ds > on predictable behavior after upgrades. > > The goal is not a system that never fails. That is unrealistic. The goal > is a system where failures leave enough evidence that they can be > understood and fixed. > > -vic > > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2026, at 09:04, vermaden wrote: > > Hi. > > > > For a start lets define some TERMS. I use UPPERCASE not to shout - but > > to underline a part of the sentence that is needed to be underlined - > > this is plain email - I do not have Bold/Underscore/Italic options - > > keep that in mind - now - to the core of the issue ... > > > > I always considered FreeBSD OSS audio/sound subsystem superior to all > > ALSA/PulseAudio/PipeWire and other dramas from the Linux world ... but > > not anymore. > > > > Somewhere between 14.3-RELEASE and 14.4-RELEASE things begin to get > > broken - I thought that upgrade to latest and greatest 15.1-RELEASE > > would solve my issues - as there were LOTS of sound/audio related > > things. > > > > I will not even start about PITA syntax of mixer(1) which went into thi= s: > > > > % mixer -f ${DEV} vol.volume=3D+0.05 > > > > ... from MUCH MORE friendly syntax. > > > > But these random 'boozing' sounds are just unacceptable ... and I can > > not even tell where they came from ... is it OSS problem? Is is > > PulseAudio problem? Something in between? Because there is NOTHING in > > the logs for audio. > > > > Its also possible to get that file from my personal 'mediafire.com' > > account here: > > - > > > https://mediafire.com/file/jw3cpk8g77rvks2/freebsd-tragic-audio-sound.mp4= /file > > > > ... and its not some fancy laptop from yesterday ... its a ThinkPad > > T480 from 2018 for fuck sake - hardware like that used to run smooth as > > Carlos Sainz 'smooth operator' in Singapore GP ... but not anymore. > > > > I do not even know what to add here ... its a message send our of > > despair ... as newer releases only made these things worse ... I have > > been repeating this over and over again - but its again probably the > > issue that 'too less' FreeBSD developers use FreeBSD as their daily > > driver/desktop/laptop system. > > > > Sorry to disappoint. > > > > Regards, > > vermaden > > --=20 Mario. --00000000000085af870657085d7c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yeah,me too. I feel your frustration. That's also mine= . Because I'm trying to fix the audio distorsions coming from the 4 inc= hes display that I want to use in the FreeBSD based phone that I'm buil= ding. I'm working with Claude and I'm spending a lot of tokens aski= ng Fable 5 to fix the problems. Report after report,it seems very hard to o= btain a clean and robust sound. I imagine how hard it is to do it without u= sing advanced AI.=C2=A0

On Mon, Jul 20, 2026 at 11:55= =E2=80=AFAM <vester.thacke= r@fastmail.fm> wrote:
I understand the frustration behind this report. Audio failure= s are difficult because the symptom is simple, a bad sound, while the cause= can exist anywhere from the driver to the application. When the system pro= vides no useful indication of where the failure occurred, debugging becomes= guesswork.

I have encountered this same class of problem while working on audio softwa= re. Awase started from the same motivation: I wanted an audio system that I= could understand, control, and improve when something went wrong. It is in= tended to become a replacement for existing desktop audio stacks, but it is= still in the early alpha stage. semasound handles audio processing and pla= yback. audiofs handles audio asset access. The separation is deliberate bec= ause systems are easier to maintain when their responsibilities and failure= boundaries are clear.

This does not solve the specific FreeBSD regression you describe today. A n= ew design still has to mature, gain users, and prove itself. However, it re= presents one possible response to the larger problem: when existing solutio= ns become too difficult to debug or modify, building a simpler system can b= e a practical path forward.

The immediate problem remains localization. The important question is not w= hether the fault is OSS or PulseAudio in isolation. The important question = is where the failure first appears. The investigation should narrow the pat= h. Test direct device output. Test through user-space layers. Compare playe= rs. Compare releases. Each result removes another possibility.

The recording is valuable because it demonstrates that the failure exists. = It gives developers something concrete to reproduce. The next step is to ga= ther enough information to identify the responsible component.

I do not know whether the cause is related to how many developers use FreeB= SD as a desktop system. There may be several contributing factors, includin= g how desktop issues are prioritized and who takes ownership of them. I do = know that regressions on common hardware deserve attention. A ThinkPad T480= is not an unusual machine. A desktop operating system depends on predictab= le behavior after upgrades.

The goal is not a system that never fails. That is unrealistic. The goal is= a system where failures leave enough evidence that they can be understood = and fixed.

-vic


On Mon, Jul 20, 2026, at 09:04, vermaden wrote:
> Hi.
>
> For a start lets define some TERMS. I use UPPERCASE not to shout - but=
> to underline a part of the sentence that is needed to be underlined - =
> this is plain email - I do not have Bold/Underscore/Italic options - <= br> > keep that in mind - now - to the core of the issue ...
>
> I always considered FreeBSD OSS audio/sound subsystem superior to all =
> ALSA/PulseAudio/PipeWire and other dramas from the Linux world ... but=
> not anymore.
>
> Somewhere between 14.3-RELEASE and 14.4-RELEASE things begin to get > broken - I thought that upgrade to latest and greatest 15.1-RELEASE > would solve my issues - as there were LOTS of sound/audio related
> things.
>
> I will not even start about PITA syntax of mixer(1) which went into th= is:
>
> % mixer -f ${DEV} vol.volume=3D+0.05
>
> ... from MUCH MORE friendly syntax.
>
> But these random 'boozing' sounds are just unacceptable ... an= d I can
> not even tell where they came from ... is it OSS problem? Is is
> PulseAudio problem? Something in between? Because there is NOTHING in =
> the logs for audio.
>
> Its also possible to get that file from my personal 'mediafire.com&= #39;
> account here:
> -
> https://mediafire= .com/file/jw3cpk8g77rvks2/freebsd-tragic-audio-sound.mp4/file
>
> ... and its not some fancy laptop from yesterday ... its a ThinkPad > T480 from 2018 for fuck sake - hardware like that used to run smooth a= s
> Carlos Sainz 'smooth operator' in Singapore GP ... but not any= more.
>
> I do not even know what to add here ... its a message send our of
> despair ... as newer releases only made these things worse ... I have =
> been repeating this over and over again - but its again probably the <= br> > issue that 'too less' FreeBSD developers use FreeBSD as their = daily
> driver/desktop/laptop system.
>
> Sorry to disappoint.
>
> Regards,
> vermaden



--
Ma= rio.
--00000000000085af870657085d7c--