Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:15:36 -0500 (EST) From: Larry Lile <lile@stdio.com> To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk> Cc: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>, cvs-all@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Current status of the olicom fracas. Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9902211231580.8061-100000@heathers.stdio.com> In-Reply-To: <16873.919614549@critter.freebsd.dk>
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On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > >Stop advocating and pick up the phone. Call Olicom, [...] > > Been there done that. I'm not always proud to be of the same > nationality as them. Sometimes their heiritage shows too much. > (You do know what the "Oli" comes from, right ?) Olivetti. Other than that I am not up on Danish history. > > >Don't complain that someone else's efforts > >don't measure up to your standards when you are unwilling to put forth > >the effort to accomplish it yourself. > > This is not about my standards, this is about FreeBSDs. > > Quoting from the back of the 2.2.8 CD: > > "The system comes with complete source[...]" I was making direct reference to your statement about your personal position. But, could we look in to changing the statement on the CD to cover my one small heresy? Add an "except for Larry Lile's sin against the open source community, he has been properly punished..." :) And I will continue to try and get Olicom to publish the interface or source. > I don't mind you writing a driver, I think it is fine. But if the > driver for one reason or another cannot pass that particular hurdle, > then I cannot see how it belongs in the FreeBSD *source* tree. My driver does "if_oltr.c", the Olicom interface "trlld.o" is the point of contention, correct? Sorry, just trying to get my labels on good and tight. > >Sorry Poul, very few people have > >tried to add token-ring support to FreeBSD and no one has succeded thus > >far. This has been attributed to a great lack of documentation and some lack of skill on the implementors part. I have yet to make a useable IBM driver, but it's getting closer. So there is some of my lacking... > You know, this >could< also be interpreted as lack of interest... > :-) Yes it could, nightfall could be interpreted as the sun falling from the sky :) I do have many megs of e-mail and httpd logs to prove otherwise. Not to mention mailing list archives and from the 3.1 release notes: ] Note that NO token ring cards are supported at this time as we're ] still waiting for someone to donate a driver for one of them. Any ] takers? > I'll admit that at one point in '95 or '96 I could have used a T/R > driver for FreeBSD but that is nothing compared to how many times > I've needed Ethernet. Perception is directly relation to position. I have worked at IBM and Lexmark - what's this ethernet stuff? (Only half kidding) There are still large markets, specifically financial and banking, that spurn anything but token-ring. I can tell you right now that the decision by IBM to back Linux not doubt took Linux's token-ring support into account, among other things. > But I'm glad that you did write it, only too bad that the hardware > vendor is not willing to fully cooperate with us. Hopefully other > HW vendors will cooperate so that they can get support for their > hardware from a driver into the *source* tree of FreeBSD. > > >Now can we all put aside the hostility and discuss this calmly and > >sanely like adults as Jordan suggested earlier. The object files > >are MY responsibility, I do not want to see Julian getting roasted > >over this. If you want to roast someone, aim my way. When it is > >all said and done, it was my doing - I wrote the driver. > > I'm roasting Julian for overstepping his authority as committer, > it was his responsibility to resolve these issues before he commited > the code. That is why he is a committer. > > A committer should for instance be able to figure out that some > kind of copyright notice would have to be put in there to describe > where the files came from and what rules if any apply to their > use. And I should have provided him with that. > A committer should also be able to figure out that even if object > files were legal targets, then i386 objects shouldn't live in > sys/dev/oltr, but in sys/i386/somewhere... sys/dev/oltr/firmware - for the firmware (Julian's original suggestion to me) but I thought the paths were getting too long. Julian was no doubt right, I should not have changed it. I will change that if need be. For the interface library, where. It is related to both the i386 and the oltr cards. Could we have it placed in /usr/src/contrib/Olicom? It could have i386 and Alpha directories if neccesary. We could also place a disclaimer in with it. Olicom's header could live in either sys/dev/oltr or contrib/Olicom it is only a matter of changing files.i386. > >Now how do we save the oltr driver and token-ring support for FreeBSD? > > As I said, until it can live up to "The system comes with complete > source[...]" I think it should be packed up with a README and > distributed from a friendly FTP site somewhere. Quite possibly > from a "pub/FreeBSD/contributed" on ftp.freebsd.org and mirrors, > (I would support that). > > Quite simply put: I don't want to give "1st class" treatment to > a company like Olicom, who will not release their sources, but I > don't mind giving them 2nd class tickets. The difference is they > don't get to sit in our *source* tree. > > I would be perfectly happy with them releasing the source under > the condition that it is NEVER modified for ANY reason without > their prior written consent, I have no problem with that, but > I have a problem with *object* files in a *source* tree. Fine, but can we find a happy medium? It may lead to Olicom releasing the source. > And I feel I have a certain weight on this issue, since I am in > the exact same situation as you are with the M-systems DOC2K driver > which I maintain (http://phk.freebsd.dk/doc2k) Maybe this will lead to an acceptable solution for your problem. > >PS: I think I may take up windmill jousting as a hobby :P > > You've come to the right place. Try to suggest a few improvements > to the style(9) page over on the hackers, question or chat list, > but please keep it away from any list I'm subscribed to. > > Poul-Henning > > PS: I think Denmark has one of the highest windmill per capita > ratios, and you can actually find one or two lawyers who are > specializing in preventing somebody from building a windmill in > your neighborhood. I've never met one of them, but I have in mind > to ask them about the parallel if I ever do :-) > > PPS: And before anybody else besides DES get their knickers into > a twist: obviously I'm not speaking *for -core*, but I am of course > speaking *as a member of -core*. No, there is definately to much knicker twisting going on with FreeBSD these days. In reference to no one in specific. Sorry my responses are taking so long, I am just trying remain calm and dispassionate about this. I do not want to loose my temper. Larry Lile lile@stdio.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe cvs-all" in the body of the message
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