Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:17:01 +0200 From: Manolis Kiagias <sonicy@otenet.gr> To: Ian Smith <smithi@nimnet.asn.au> Cc: Nicky Chorley <nick.chorley@gmail.com>, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 8.0 installation doesn't contain X distributions Message-ID: <4B20F4CD.8060009@otenet.gr> In-Reply-To: <20091210185602.T12012@sola.nimnet.asn.au> References: <20091206102227.7C3BA10656F0@hub.freebsd.org> <20091210185602.T12012@sola.nimnet.asn.au>
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Ian Smith wrote:
> In freebsd-questions Digest, Vol 287, Issue 16, Message: 8
> On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:39:08 +0200 Manolis Kiagias <sonicy@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > However, I do not see any distributions listed that are prefixed with
> > > "X-". The choices are "All", "Reset", "Developer", "Kern-Developer",
> > > "User", "Minimal" and "Custom". Even the "Custom" option has nothing
> > > related to Xorg.
> > >
> >
> > That's correct, these have been removed.
>
> Hi Manolis,
>
> Look, I'm sorry, but I think this is a huge regression, especially if
> we're still hoping that people with no prior experience of installing
> freeBSD, people coming from Linux and such, for essentially or including
> desktop use, are going to have a rewarding installation experience.
>
> > > Is it supposed to be like this (i.e. no distributions containing X are
> > > presented on installation), or do I need to download other media from
> > > which to install? Note that I'm not asking how to install X and I
> > > realise that I can do it post-installation, but I'm just wondering
> > > whether I've made a mistake with my download or if the documentation
> > > is out of date.
> > >
> >
> > You've done nothing wrong, the documentation is in need of an update.
> > Please file a doc-bug PR.
> > Removing X from the distributions is a right step IMO, these are just
> > 3rd party packages and it seems confusing if they get installed along
> > with the base system.
>
> I think this is taking base-system-only installation purity to excess.
>
>
On the other hand, I feel it is confusing when you find yourself
essentially selecting packages in the menus for the base-system components.
The DVD *still* has the packages, and you are still asked if you wish to
install any. Xorg is just one click away - select the meta-package and
the entire thing goes in.
> Fine for people installing servers of course, and maybe it will shift
> more people wanting a GUI environment towards PC-BSD and such if we want
> to discourage these from using FreeBSD as it is (or maybe, was) but even
> with my 11 years experience of installing FrreeBSD versions from 2.2
> till now, I kept on wondering, how would a newbie fare at this point?
>
>
Having shown the FreeBSD installation to people only acquainted with
Windows or Ubuntu, I always get the same reaction: Completely
disheartening, confusing, complex. You need to know too many things and
when everything is done right, you are just rewarded with a console
login. This is a fact: FreeBSD is not for the faint of heart, and
definitely not for someone who wants a desktop in five minutes. You have
to get past the initial shock and devote a lot of time to learn your way
around the system. This requires considerable effort and there are lots
of people who have neither the time nor the inclination to dig deep into
an OS - they just want a working desktop.
IMHO an extra click for the Xorg is not that much important in the grand
scheme of things. I think it would be best if beginners are informed
beforehand that they really need to study: you will not get a working
desktop FreeBSD 'by chance' or because someone else configured the
defaults for you and you just restored an image to your hard drive (as I
understand, this is what most desktop-oriented Linux distros do these days)
Now if we delve deeper into this we are going to hit philosophical
questions like "Do we want ignorant users?" "Is our setup procedure so
discouraging that even would-be-knowledgeable users abandon the system
early?" "Should we provide an Ubuntu-like BSD install?"
I can live with sysinstall myself, although I don't really like it.
There are numerous problems with it (and we had a long thread in the
past about it, so I am not going to repeat myself) with the added fact
that as the system progresses to new features (journaling, ZFS, gpart
...) sysinstall "stands still" and does not provide any way to use them
during initial setup.
I've introduced more than a few beginners to FreeBSD. I always warn them
beforehand what to expect - I only continue with those who are prepared
to study the handbook and a few (hundred...) pages of my introductory
notes. All of them are now happy, satisfied users. But none expected to
have a working desktop in five minutes. There are other distributions
for that (PC-BSD, Ubuntu)
> > If you wish to install X during initial installation you can still do it
> > when you get to the packages stage. I believe you will need the DVD for
> > that.
>
> I used the memstick.img (discussed in another thread) and then FTP for
> installing packages. I've done this before using bootonly CDs, and it
> has advantages and disadvantages; for me it's been mostly positive.
>
> The main advantage is access to all packages. If you know what you
> want, and which categories they live in, it's great; an hour or so
> picking and away you go (modulo failures with this FTP site or that).
> There still exist people with slow net connections and older, slower
> kit for whom building everything from source would be very tedious.
>
> The main disadvantage is - access to all packages :) In the case of X,
> you and I, developers and most people here know to hunt for the Xorg
> meta-port. But the naive or new installer knows of no such thing, and
> could beat around in the huge lists of X software for ages, wondering
> what's required and what's not to get a desktop going.
>
True. So I guess we really need a "Your first FreeBSD Desktop" article
to point to for first time installers.
X is just tip of the iceberg here, consider these:
- How to setup xorg.conf, hal?
- What packages do I need for {GNOME,KDE,XFCE,You-Name-It-WM}?
- What is .xinitrc? How am I going to setup my login manager?
- Where is bash? Why are my locale settings wrong?
- Got into X finally, why isn't my flash drive automounted?
- ...
All this info and more is available in the Handbook, but it is not
intended to be read as a sequential setup guide. There are far more
discouraging things even after you get X installed.
> The previous basic setup menus in sysinstall for X were not only useful;
> I suspect that they are virtually essential for someone, say, coming
> from Debian or Ubuntu or such, wanting to try FreeBSD on their system,
> or the genuine first-time installer of FreeBSD. sysinstall used to
> assume as little prior knowledge or need to pre-read the Handbook and/or
> FAQ or follow the lists as possible. Now it's seeming much more firmly
> targeted at the already experienced user, and I feel that's regressive.
>
> cheers, Ian
>
>
Quite frankly, I don't believe sysinstall has gotten any worse. But
there are so many easy installers out there for 5 minute setups, that
more and more users already come with the fixed mindset "it will install
in 5 minutes, I won't have to read anything" which clearly won't work.
But I believe PC-BSD fills the gap for them and it is getting better all
the time.
Apologies for the long post :)
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