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([2607:fb90:82a9:a99e:b851:5f32:3f1d:bd9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k15sm103247881pfb.147.2019.01.05.11.31.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 05 Jan 2019 11:31:04 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components From: Enji Cooper X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16C104) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:31:03 -0800 Cc: Wojciech Puchar , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky Message-Id: <297D3C7B-BA50-4C20-A1A6-DFFE7A07E1F9@gmail.com> References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <7BCC2D20-7CC5-42B1-BBD2-F3D077D59081@gmail.com> To: Warner Losh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A55548FA05 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=heYwiBWS; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yaneurabeya@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::533 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yaneurabeya@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.09 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.936,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.65)[ip: (-9.31), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.19), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 19:31:08 -0000 > On Jan 3, 2019, at 11:44, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:32 PM Wojciech Puchar wrote= : >> >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*= >> >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said >> >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a >> >> resounding NO, save for bloat. >> > >> > And this is why one reason people say =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is dying=E2=80=9D= . >> > >> dying for whom? It=E2=80=99s mostly dead to developers I=E2=80=99ve run across. If I had a d= ime for each time that I heard a sysadmin/SRE say, =E2=80=9Cgee, I like Free= BSD, but I have to use Linux instead=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cwhat is FreeBSD?=E2=80= =9D, or =E2=80=9Coh, that OS.=E2=80=9D, I would be a bit richer. Putting it this way, FreeBSD has been largely displaced by Linux in the data= center because of mindshare (the large amount of advocacy by sysadmins/SREs,= available documentation/training, etc), the fact that CI/distributed system= s/VM support just works (allowing developers to deliver features to market o= r do opensource development more quickly), the fact that mobile/desktop most= ly works with little to no tweaking (depending on the GNU/Linux distro/spin)= , etc. > And who is getting punished? We're having an interesting discussion about a= possible new technology to use and developing criteria to know when we will= know if/when it's useful. Apologies Warner=E2=80=94my goal in saying =E2=80=9Cshut up and code=E2=80=9D= (paraphrased), was to avoid continuing a bikeshed discussion, where there d= idn=E2=80=99t seem to be a lot of positive progress being made. Repeated statements (over 2x) like =E2=80=9Crust is bloat=E2=80=9D; =E2=80=9C= rust will never be in the base system=E2=80=9D; etc is imho, non-constructiv= e criticism. That=E2=80=99s more of where I was trying to come from with my r= eply to this subthread a couple days ago. Thank you for asking and pointing this fact out. I=E2=80=99m totally ok with= continuing constructive discussion on the merits/demerits of python, rust, e= tc (keyword being constructive). Thank you very much, -Enji=