From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jun 20 21:07:18 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65BEDA2665 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2017 21:07:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 712B274412 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2017 21:07:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x236.google.com with SMTP id k93so92480083ioi.2 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2017 14:07:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=dvUpFwlzLM4snKXh6UnuYay8Owr1t3DvCScJ5lrAIZ0=; b=P0smnaALE2xbyLkWTPuQwjUStwADPpzGTRu5heoeRMVZc1XU4KrIiMN6hWuVOkzkIj Knd2PAP0aOCgeaD1u0tQTxwC667FYqejdOAkmwf9SSZz3ZoiidN2tIgqmV8aJCyIZtXn aSUC2ajezUudTDx//9u5XtHOdhyZhyBKkJTrT4mb3rXlSFByvT+GZQLB5GuQe2IfmHz1 5pmDCJcz/yf3Y62fqy5NwSNEVbQIYjXUiqhAQDOb3J0FCJ6JwP4V+8Pi/YgK9LZZDrIb g7c5XP3e7K+GQm29Rko8xcwFIyvau76yEIqva/BEPXwcOmw0s78d4sZlr3pAwMKYjz6p HmZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dvUpFwlzLM4snKXh6UnuYay8Owr1t3DvCScJ5lrAIZ0=; b=Thvz22vuNaolkewzjcdiZR25EysJkY6gMIVgK5pDWy0FbzNgtdhYKh1UvbKpFpMEZj E/5Fr2i63aop4d9bFsVV5fFVeOXREVbVwhXLdl3IOkHkdOGlLrg5KLFGc03GognX8+LK KJDgtyhZkE4YtpyO3ZSclivl+6AD3BJpIumfyGYF6pnN7DnRVE+DNDi9rder7oCmYBVI sXibAM90QKXDjPSaKM1t/LI4QiKSvYEIr2FSHM16AkjdO9hxuiuqU95HyV2Ww7fF2+gu PLw7R9taZ8ABzxdfXROhqtgX0YdsBVD5Du5xyrmrH+TRHrHTwsZxVp3aniikSg71UcYH P1SQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOxY0IHjYonPX+HhKItk5uNJVdVwbWRoRga11ulLLMtGMt9Xf2tE dwHHpnwclWNY/Ct9WSXPVuvZ5l+HWFxA X-Received: by 10.107.170.213 with SMTP id g82mr32389666ioj.148.1497992837718; Tue, 20 Jun 2017 14:07:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.192.69 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2017 14:07:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [12.27.65.223] In-Reply-To: References: <20170620111136.fz5ovfa4imm3p4hj@ivaldir.net> <20170620155954.150dedc5@bsd64.grem.de> <20170620171744.GA72667@ymer.vnode.se> <20170620202217.8ddf0bae0d3dbe7063549006@bidouilliste.com> <20170620201635.GC18123@zxy.spb.ru> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 15:07:17 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: GzIQyrdP2mz3-5Exvl-64mqYCng Message-ID: Subject: Re: rtools were deemed almost unused 15 years ago... To: Michael Gmelin Cc: Slawa Olhovchenkov , Jeremie Le Hen , Baptiste Daroussin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Emmanuel Vadot , Joel Dahl Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 21:07:18 -0000 On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Michael Gmelin wrote: > > > > On 20. Jun 2017, at 22:16, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 08:22:17PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 19:17:44 +0200 > >> Joel Dahl wrote: > >> > >>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 03:59:54PM +0200, Michael Gmelin wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 13:11:37 +0200 > >>>> Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 12:25:46PM +0200, Jeremie Le Hen wrote: > >>>>>> Hey folks, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I remember when I was still barely out of my teenagehood, people > >>>>>> were mostly using ssh/scp while rtools (rsh, rlogin, ... for the > >>>>>> youngsters) were left in place as a courtesy for legacy production > >>>>>> systems still relying it on them. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Fast forward to 2017 (so yes, 15 years later), stack-clash [1] > >>>>>> sorely reminds us that suid binaries are an attack surface. I don't > >>>>>> even need to mention that it's a healthy engineering practice to > >>>>>> remove unused code, both from a maintenance and security > >>>>>> perspective. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Therefore, I hereby propose to remove rtools from the base system. > >>>>>> I acknowledge this will likely cause troubles for a handful of > >>>>>> people who are still relying on it for good or bad reasons. But the > >>>>>> flipside is that the attack surface of millions of FreeBSD > >>>>>> installed out there will be reduced. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The proposed roadmap is: > >>>>>> - disable from the build on head and let it soak for one month > >>>>>> - remove rtools from the base. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What do you guys think? Any preferred color for the bikeshed? :) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] https://www.qualys.com/2017/06/19/stack-clash/stack-clash.txt > >>>>> > >>>>> Yeah! > >>>>> > >>>>> Is telnetd part of your list? > >>>> > >>>> As long as the telnet(1) client stays in I'm all for it. > >>> > >>> +1. Please keep the telnet client. It's something I expect be part of > the base > >>> system utilities. I use it all the time. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Joel > >> > >> Time to learn nc(1), I'm still fighting to use nc(1) insteal of telnet > >> (1) because of musle memory but removing it will help me make the > >> switch. > >> > >> I honestly don't see any valid reason to keep telnet in the tree. > > > > Don't talk what we need to learn, please. > > > > PS: nc don't emulate telnet protocol. > > I use nc every day (more frequently than telnet for sure), but it serves a > different purpose than telnet. I need both. > Same here. I use cat and more every day as well. They both display files, but have different uses... Warner