From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 7 10:11:15 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13785A66D19 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 10:11:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trtrmitya@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x22e.google.com (mail-lf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9317F1FAB for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 10:11:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trtrmitya@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id y184so329106627lfc.1 for ; Thu, 07 Jan 2016 02:11:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vm2bn5NZwodS5tF7Aua7bQhNtkd3rH4lDAjcYmueTJ8=; b=N4XqHsu8Qi5D+6z37Z8q/s3XflHsjpGt5S4cPCTE/dhBgY/dRXzU/rAvx1oI++vReO WDqXczGndE48/xFnEra8rpP9Zrpo7LXaCbvRBA6Wnrt2nT2w0xb2VUyyvPtOLXMvg6Cq yYJN9sDeufv5Qon81YdzsuChTNTubJV9OrQ4pdsXtPJxeO3Tx+HqxhU0r+IbeJvqaveT DD2aTruFCEn9rDuIbKtM/yWVZ4DAAQTRm5gJIhe8QWqw8+SgcS+75zafKqPmhDh/H1hW qfCNK5GGXZDRfVilhSBwhbSQXdYWpR6MW4NNAXOuDTqb36+wuUtb9VuwuE+WjetL4nYV Lylw== X-Received: by 10.25.18.231 with SMTP id 100mr37449678lfs.25.1452161472583; Thu, 07 Jan 2016 02:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (broadband-5-228-251-240.nationalcablenetworks.ru. [5.228.251.240]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k3sm8086477lbp.9.2016.01.07.02.11.11 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 07 Jan 2016 02:11:11 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) Subject: Re: relaunchd: a portable clone of launchd From: Dmitry Sivachenko In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 13:11:10 +0300 Cc: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <817860B6-5D67-41A3-ADD7-9757C7E67C35@gmail.com> References: <5687D3A9.5050400@NTLWorld.com> To: Mark Heily X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2016 10:11:15 -0000 > On 07 Jan 2016, at 05:12, Mark Heily wrote: >=20 > On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard > wrote: >>=20 >> I recommend, to anyone going down this route, looking towards = finishing >> systembsd, especially instead of inventing a wholly new suite of = protocols. >>=20 >> * https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=3Dsystembsd.git >> * >> = http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-p= ackaging-hoo-hah.html >> * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D10176275 >>=20 >> The reason is that finishing systemdbsd will make happy all of the = people >> who want the desktop environments whose design is driven largely by = Linux to >> work on FreeBSD/PC-BSD. The desktop environments that they'd like to = use >> have been or are being modified to work with these daemons, over this = D-Bus >> protocol. >>=20 >=20 > I strongly disagree with your recommendation to adopt DBus and systemd > as core components of FreeBSD. >=20 > =46rom a practical perspective, the proposal has a low probability of > success. Systemd is written for Linux and is largely driven by a > commercial Linux vendor. It is a rapidly moving target, with no sense > of scope or boundaries. It eagerly consumes the latest and greatest > innovations in the Linux kernel, with open disdain for portability. >=20 > =46rom a philosophical perspective, I don't agree with the direction > that systemd is taking Linux. It's one of the reasons I switched to > BSD after many years in the Linux camp. To quote Spock, "Logic clearly > dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In > case of FreeBSD, this means that the needs of the desktop users should > not outweigh the needs of the server/jail/embedded/appliance users. My > concern with systemd and DBus is that these tools are highly > desktop-centric, and introduce a large degree of unwanted change, > complexity, and risk to everyone else. I totally agree. systemd is an ugly beast, solving simple problem in complex way. After using FreeBSD's rc system for years, I think that switching to = something systemd-related would be huge mistake. No reason to clone everything that happens in Linux world.=