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([2607:fb90:82a9:a99e:b851:5f32:3f1d:bd9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r80sm104705351pfa.111.2019.01.05.11.41.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 05 Jan 2019 11:41:11 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components From: Enji Cooper X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16C104) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:41:10 -0800 Cc: Hackers freeBSD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <7BCC2D20-7CC5-42B1-BBD2-F3D077D59081@gmail.com> To: Igor Mozolevsky X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A0806684AC X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=FvMr640j; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yaneurabeya@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::442 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yaneurabeya@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.53 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.30)[-0.302,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.74)[0.739,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.80)[-0.803,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.4.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.34)[ip: (5.65), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.20), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 19:41:14 -0000 > On Jan 3, 2019, at 10:20, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >=20 >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 17:41, Enji Cooper wrote: >>=20 >> Igor, >>=20 >>> On Jan 3, 2019, at 08:32, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >>>=20 >>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed* >>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said >>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a >>> resounding NO, save for bloat. >>=20 >> And this is why one reason people say =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is dying=E2=80=9D.= >>=20 >> If we stuck with status quo, we wouldn=E2=80=99t have llvm, would use jus= t PowerPC/I >=20 > Really, FreeBSD is dying because people don't want to experiment with > "new toys" that have *not* been proven to be effective at what they > claim to do while having been proven to be a bloat? Really, that's > your argument? Well, like And there I was thinking it way dying > because of long-term "issues" like this one: > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D203874 that prevent > me (and I suspect many many others) from virtualising FreeBSD and > causing a switch to the various flavours of Linux! Totally valid point. Given that I run VMware, I would like to see that fixed= as well. > Like Wojciech said, absolutely nothing prevents you from forking off a > branch and even re-writing the entire code in Rust, just don't turn > around and say "I spend X amount of time on it therefore it must be > integrated into FreeBSD-proper regardless of the numerous shortfalls"! > As it stands the base install is too large as it is, and I have > recompile the whole thing with a whole bunch of WITHOUTs already, and > you're saying more bloatware should be added. I did my best to add those MK_* knobs a few years ago to speed up the build.= I=E2=80=99m glad it=E2=80=99s usable.. > Maintainability is not about code, it's about people's skills and > documentation, if one is inept at C, or Python, what on Earth makes > you think they would write amazing code in Rust? Your argument simply > doesn't follow there at all. CompSci courses in the US (at least) has curricula which is based on Java/py= thon. I had a hard enough time getting people to write modern C at Facebook (the p= rimary language was modern C++ for infra, with Java and Python being other c= ommonly used languages). People as a whole don=E2=80=99t like raw=20 >> Tl;Dr: if you don=E2=80=99t have anything constructive to say, please ret= hink your replies and provide constructive criticism. Constructive criticism= is welcome. Armchair nitpicking is not. >=20 > Here's my constructive criticism: don't waste resources on an unproven > and still-evolving language; if you have *that* much free time on your han= ds > start working through BugZilla. >=20 >=20 > -- > Igor M.