From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Jan 5 19:54:11 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462BD141F639 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:54:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 611C36A2AA for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:54:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id fs17gZlCCMRX3fs18g3BA3; Sat, 05 Jan 2019 12:54:02 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=TL87tGta c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=heTAvR70AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=zcBEirNQ0PO-mf0p6CUA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=lJIPGLpbTLIA:10 a=UrJ2pwYPfabwj1STkZPu:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F45919A; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x05Jru3D071123; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:53:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x05JrucZ071109; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:53:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901051953.x05JrucZ071109@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Enji Cooper cc: Wojciech Puchar , Cy Schubert , Igor Mozolevsky , Hackers freeBSD Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: Message from Enji Cooper of "Sat, 05 Jan 2019 10:38:27 -0800." <0EB517DF-376E-435A-B24D-A4964D0F148F@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 11:53:56 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfILTsCePmtabPW3U2Et31tOHpNksGEEAX+DYSwybjPLFFpUUoJqRh1ceQJMDtWde1syVlBfVcrGpUDlERVKSMh9ar1NE4vsd313sZpzlhp7mPGcuu/iI bqWbDkNmZrdie/WQq2j1gTLAVitH3fZUafBdFN1vUfP0GKMYAdpnl2CiT/b8H1Qazkk2o6NoChLuhz9baBydcaaE8j0nP7mdaXrN9plhw/jwzEXjs8rZ1Meu 9bn170CGDoaDplxD+/qanMHstoFSaYO1d5emxVVjfiDKytgrWDI4/f4/f+rwzv8f X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 611C36A2AA X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.52 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.952,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[9.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.86)[ip: (-4.80), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.44), asn: 6327(-1.95), country: CA(-0.09)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 19:54:11 -0000 In message <0EB517DF-376E-435A-B24D-A4964D0F148F@gmail.com>, Enji Cooper writes : > On Jan 5, 2019, at 07:07, Wojciech Puchar wrote: > > >>>> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and > >>>> evolving virtualization technologies. > >>>> > >>>> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to > >>>> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it > >>>> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem. > >>> > >>> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD? > >> > >> Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately > >> inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray > >> vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD. > > no need to. > > Actually, not having Docker/Kubernetes support makes it more difficult to rid > e the CI/distributed system wave, requiring FreeBSD to reinvent the wheel to > do CI, and force various groups to write their own homegrown distributed syst > ems infrastructures instead of leveraging existing technologies. > > >> The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building > >> blocks onto which future technologies will be built. > >> > > and this is really sad. > > Not really. It’s a sign of maturity as most things now run on a “cloud ba > sed” infrastructure, or small embedded OSes running embedded Linux (not Fre > eBSD). > > >>> Not everyone needs the same. > >> > >> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as > >> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S. > > > > Simple bare metal O/S is what is really needed. > > Not really. As Cy pointed out, in order to ensure that FreeBSD is well-suppor > ted by large companies (Dell, Facebook via WhatsApp, Juniper, and Sony were s > ome of the large contributors over the past couple years, along with a host o > f other smaller storage companies), so it continues to exist in a healthy way > , it needs to be dynamic and customizable to meet the needs from embedded dev > elopment up to large-scale distributed systems. A number of these companies h > ave considered switching away from FreeBSD to Linux because FreeBSD is niche > (see Microsoft with Hotmail, Yahoo, etc). Let’s not give developers willing > to make the switch more ammunition to do so. This has everything to do with relevance. Look at where illumos and all the other *BSDs are. They're pretty much hobbyist operating systems. The discussion on an illumos developers mailing list has given me that impression as well. At $JOB my customers are migrating from AIX, Solaris and even Windows to Linux and from traditional Linux to microservices run under OpenShift. As I told my manager at $JOB those many years ago, the operating system will become a stub. We are now realizing this. The other thing I see at $JOB is the network is now being virtualized using NSX. Our Checkpoint firewalls are no longer physical but virtual. FreeBSD with jails and VIMAGE is in a great position to play in this space as well. An example might be, at $JOB we are using vRO and vRA but it could be as easily done using Kubernetes and ansible to centrally manage network of virtual and physical FreeBSD based firewalls. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.