Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:04:16 +0300 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> To: Stefan Blachmann <sblachmann@gmail.com> Cc: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Joseph Mingrone <jrm@freebsd.org>, =?UTF-8?B?w5Z6a2FuIEtJUklL?= <ozkan.kirik@gmail.com>, Michael Schuster <michaelsprivate@gmail.com>, Kyle Evans <kevans@freebsd.org>, Karel Gardas <gardask@gmail.com>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Call for Foundation-supported Project Ideas Message-ID: <CAOgwaMvOkKcWv6ej%2BsoHAQOV8uc8VYwZU4xW6jHDG-75L%2BjexQ@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CACc-My0NLTpH6Ttogcx6-XD1svsbVpg5kJaH5v8r=CiQ%2BXvMkg@mail.gmail.com> References: <861r36xzpe.fsf@phe.ftfl.ca> <61100a28-40ae-4458-d7d5-3bc9b13ba219@gmail.com> <CADqw_gKkii%2BBHk7_jPE0DV5ZdF86ydEq956WDtZOP1N9GBjAPw@mail.gmail.com> <CACNAnaH4GH_n8GVYN44op-VO7VZ5_GLP8SBj0SfoC5KoBSFDQw@mail.gmail.com> <CADqw_gJuU6_Wt-GEJduz_Tm0oQg4dDv-5XDz1bsgWqtCmp1R2w@mail.gmail.com> <CAAcX-AHCom%2B5Zf2ENf%2BcFxPDrCWY=e_EaXfRamd%2BwnynBn1-VQ@mail.gmail.com> <864k6qj6x6.fsf@phe.ftfl.ca> <86zgoihs64.fsf@phe.ftfl.ca> <CACc-My26b1GZ7_s93Jx-DgeA=8%2BdS_2MYSoCv_D6uzRihyNHNQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfq7s2ODPbrZRztXQ7q1aMeDtK-bsoEoW%2BZKDkiyktKUSQ@mail.gmail.com> <CACc-My1WHdgxidCiYDW2RrWxM4sKao7o_Tw-pZuuE_Y0WXC4JQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfpb=Oq1hgLRYk59duCRgVjVtu5bd4VAKR8wbgJdoi9vDg@mail.gmail.com> <CACc-My0NLTpH6Ttogcx6-XD1svsbVpg5kJaH5v8r=CiQ%2BXvMkg@mail.gmail.com>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] I am not a part of this discussion , and the problem is not affecting me . But ... Such situations really are causing significant pain in my soul . Why ? ( I am a graduate of Mathematics , In our work every claim requires a PROOF , not words of a BIG one , whether she/he is me or any other one . ) I graduated in 1974 and started as a "System Analyst and Designer" job in Hacettepe University ( Ankara , Turkey ) . In our school , the computer was IBM System 360 with 64 KILO bytes . In Hacettepe Data Processing Center , the computer was a Burroughs B3500 with 128 KILO bytes ( called in that system as 256 KILO digits ) . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_Medium_Systems Burroughs Medium Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_MCP Burroughs MCP I front of its console ( Commands may be differently written ) : --- stop n <---- Number of multi-tasked job --- . --- . --- . --- start n <---- Number of multi-tasked job --- . --- . --- . --- set priority n as m ... A company of Hacettepe University was using the computer during nights . When they were starting around 18:00 : --- load / into tape in { cluster unit of } n ( 1 , 2 , 3 ,or 4 ) --- remove / <----- All of the contents ( written as / ) of the 100 MEGA bytes Hard disk larger than a caravan type automobile . --- load tape from { cluster unit of } n ( 1 , 2 , 3 ,or 4 ) A short time later , ALL of the MCP ( Master Control Program ) and data was loaded into the hard disk and ALL of the possible work began . Around 1979 , a new mainframe arrived to Beytepe campus of Hacettepe : Burroughs B6700 with 2 ( TWO ) MEGA bytes memory . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Burroughs_mainframe_computers Category:Burroughs mainframe computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:High-level_language_computer_architecture Category:High-level language computer architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_large_systems Burroughs large systems Around 1980 years , one engineer working for a large USA company made a remark , approximately , : "... Optimization of a very large Fortran program such as 2000 lines is a very difficult task . ... " Some of my mathematical analysis programs much larger than 2000 lines were developed and executed on this computer . It is not easy to develop such a large program without possible run time error(s) . Burroughs B6700 computer ( multi-tasked ) was using "print spooling" . In output of program , after banner about user name and some other information about the job , was listing a stack trace ( approximately in the following structure , the listing is not the exact reproduction ) : Run time error : n has occurred in line : m in routine : name called by routine : name from line : k called by routine : name from line : k . . . called by main : name from line : k Now the year is 2022 . You know what is the level of maturity or usability or other features of existing systems . The cpu speed is around 3 GIGA Herz . The memory sizes are { 4 or 8 or 16 or 32 or 64 or 128 or 256 ... ) GIGA Bytes ... The job done is ... : I do not know anything except fancy or fantastic screen paints or other useless things excluding facilities like the examples given above ... Please NEVER think that I am blaming our very valuable contributors . Contrary to such a disgusting behavior I am very indebted to them for their efforts ( means using their a part of very holy life time for the benefit of humanity ) . I know the difficulty of working in such a time : When it is understood that a pandemic has started , my official medical doctor called me to say : "Never go outside ! It is very dangerous for you ... " . Since at the beginning of 2020 February I am in isolation . The other people are not better than me with respect to their jobs , dangers for their families and themselves . At that , we need ways to maximize productivity of our contributors and users of FreeBSD by minimizing waste of their time ( ... ) and resources . How ? This is a different story outside of this thread . I am very sorry to waste your time . With my best wishes for your future and your work . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 3:17 PM Stefan Blachmann <sblachmann@gmail.com> wrote: > On 1/4/22, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > 15 or 20 years [...] > > main reason laptops stopped suspending in the early 2000s... [...] > > And the INT xx interface is unavailable on amd64 after we > > enter long mode > > First, you mentioned a hacking session in the "early 2000s". > This makes me wonder whether you might mistake some other thing from > the distance of time, as UEFI was no real thing until ~2010, and was > never a thing on platforms other than amd64 also. Suspend/resume on > FreeBSD only appeared much later, too. > > Second, there is kernel functionality to call real mode interrupt > handlers from long mode, which manage switching to real mode and back. > Just an example, these are being used by vt (via vesa.ko) to switch vesa > modes. > > So I do not see why this real mode access infrastructure could not > also be used to make a call to C000:(PCI PROM Programming interface > code offset), or the respective segment address where the actual VGA > BIOS is, to have it initialize the int 10h interface handler, if a > hybrid/dual graphics card BIOS is present. > I think a single function "InitializeVGABIOSifpresent" to enable > access to VGA/VESA BIOS functionality might actually be fairly easy to > implement. > Furthermore, there is no need at all to access hardware specific stuff > like you mentioned, as the necessary functionality is completely > covered by the int 10h interface. > > Imho it could be worth to allocate a small part of the sponsoring > budget to put a bounty to motivate people (including possibly me) to > implement these improvements regarding suspend/resume and enhanced sc > and vt usability. > > > > On 1/4/22, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:14 AM Stefan Blachmann <sblachmann@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> On 1/4/22, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > >> > Not without loading the xorg graphics stuff... graphics chips from the > >> last > >> > 15 or 20 years have lots of chip specific state that only the graphics > >> > stuff knows about... IIRC, it only knows about it because it put the > >> > graphics into a known state... it's the main reason laptops stopped > >> > suspending in the early 2000s... it looks to be a lot of work for a > >> > relatively rare use case... > >> > >> UEFI GOP seems to have the necessary functionalities > >> (https://wiki.osdev.org/GOP#Get_the_Current_Mode) so I guess the work > >> required would be limited (restore mode and redraw screen from > >> buffer). > >> > > > > UEFI GOP isn't available after we start the kernel, so this is a > > non-starter. > > It works great in the boot loader, but not so good after we boot. It > could > > work > > for S3 sleep to disk where we actually reboot to restore the machine > state, > > but we don't have sleep to disk today :( > > > > > >> With non-UEFI or old UGA UEFI implementations possibly one could use > >> the dual BIOS´ CSM part. Just call the CSM BIOS init to set up GPU and > >> the int 10h interface, and then set previously used mode+redraw. > >> BTW, doing that also could both enable vt(4) to change > >> modes/resolutions and using sc on UEFI computers. > >> > > > > Ah, if only things were really that simple... I tried variations on that > > hack years ago when suspending broke due to video. And it > > works for some machines, but not others, was the quick assessment > > I made. And the INT xx interface is unavailable on amd64 after we > > enter long mode (I tried this out on my then-current FreeBSD laptop > > which was 32 bit only, so 15 years ago?). > > > > Warner > > > > > >> But I think you are right, there are probably not too many users who > >> would make use of that. > >> > >> > >> On 1/4/22, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > >> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 11:03 PM Stefan Blachmann <sblachmann@gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Implementing S3 suspend/resume was a sponsored project itself. > >> >> However, it still does only work when at xorg graphics mode, which > >> >> already was topic in this thread. > >> >> When using it from console, no matter sc or vt, it still hangs with > >> >> dark screen and unresponsive keyboard. > >> >> Could finishing the suspend/resume work be sponsored, so that it also > >> >> works on console-only computers? > >> >> > >> > > >> > Not without loading the xorg graphics stuff... graphics chips from the > >> last > >> > 15 or 20 years have lots of chip specific state that only the graphics > >> > stuff knows about... IIRC, it only knows about it because it put the > >> > graphics into a known state... it's the main reason laptops stopped > >> > suspending in the early 2000s... it looks to be a lot of work for a > >> > relatively rare use case... > >> > > >> > Warner > >> > > >> > > >> >> On 12/30/21, Joseph Mingrone <jrm@freebsd.org> wrote: > >> >> > On Thu, 2021-12-30 at 14:15, Joseph Mingrone <jrm@FreeBSD.org> > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> On Thu, 2021-12-30 at 08:05, Özkan KIRIK <ozkan.kirik@gmail.com> > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >>> I've ideas about enhancing the routing architecture. Is it > >> >> >>> possible > >> >> >>> to > >> >> >>> add to wiki? > >> >> > > >> >> >> Certainly. Please do. > >> >> > > >> >> > The link again is https://wiki.freebsd.org/2021FoundationCFI > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > > > [-- Attachment #2 --] <div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">I am not a part of this discussion , and the problem is not affecting me .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">But ... Such situations really are causing significant pain in my soul .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Why ?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">( I am a graduate of Mathematics , In our work every claim requires a PROOF , not</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">words of a BIG one , whether she/he is me or any other one . )</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">I graduated in 1974 and started as a "System Analyst and Designer" job in <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Hacettepe University ( Ankara , Turkey ) . In our school , the computer was <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">IBM System 360 with 64 KILO bytes . In Hacettepe Data Processing Center , the computer</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">was a Burroughs B3500 with 128 KILO bytes ( called in that system as 256 KILO digits ) .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_Medium_Systems">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_Medium_Systems</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Burroughs Medium Systems<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_MCP">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_MCP</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Burroughs MCP</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">I front of its console ( Commands may be differently written ) :</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- stop n <---- Number of multi-tasked job</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- start n <---- Number of multi-tasked job</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- .</div></div></div>--- set priority n as m<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> ...</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">A company of Hacettepe University was using the computer during nights .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">When they were starting around 18:00 :</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- load / into tape in { cluster unit of } n ( 1 , 2 , 3 ,or 4 )<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br><br></div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- remove / <----- All of the contents ( written as / ) of the 100 MEGA bytes <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> Hard disk larger than a caravan type automobile .<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">--- load tape from { cluster unit of } n ( 1 , 2 , 3 ,or 4 )</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> A short time later , ALL of the MCP ( Master Control Program ) and data</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> was loaded into the hard disk and ALL of the possible work began .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Around 1979 , a new mainframe arrived to Beytepe campus of Hacettepe :</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Burroughs B6700 with 2 ( TWO ) MEGA bytes memory .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Burroughs_mainframe_computers">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Burroughs_mainframe_computers</a></div>Category:Burroughs mainframe computers<br><br><br></div><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:High-level_language_computer_architecture">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:High-level_language_computer_architecture</a><br>Category:High-level language computer architecture<br></div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_large_systems">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_large_systems</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Burroughs large systems<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Around 1980 years , one engineer working for a large USA company made a <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">remark , approximately , : "... Optimization of a very large Fortran program such as</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">2000 lines is a very difficult task . ... "<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Some of my mathematical analysis programs much larger than 2000 lines were developed</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">and executed on this computer .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">It is not easy to develop such a large program without possible run time error(s) .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Burroughs B6700 computer ( multi-tasked ) was using "print spooling" .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">In output of program , after banner about user name and some other information <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">about the job , was listing a stack trace ( approximately in the following structure ,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">the listing is not the exact reproduction ) :</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Run time error : n</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">has occurred in line : m in routine : name <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">called by routine : name from line : k</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">called by routine : name from line : k</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br> .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">called by main : name from line : k</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Now the year is 2022 . You know what is the level of maturity or usability or <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">other features of existing systems . The cpu speed is around 3 GIGA Herz .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">The memory sizes are { 4 or 8 or 16 or 32 or 64 or 128 or 256 ... ) GIGA Bytes ...<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">The job done is ... : I do not know anything except fancy or fantastic screen paints or other useless things excluding facilities like the examples given above ...<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Please NEVER think that I am blaming our very valuable contributors . Contrary to</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">such a disgusting behavior I am very indebted to them for their efforts ( means <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">using their a part of very holy life time for the benefit of humanity ) .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">I know the difficulty of working in such a time : When it is understood that a pandemic</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">has started , my official medical doctor called me to say :</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">"Never go outside ! It is very dangerous for you ... " . <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Since at the beginning of 2020 February I am in isolation . <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">The other people are not better than me with respect to their jobs , <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">dangers for their families and themselves .<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">At that , we need ways to maximize productivity of our contributors and users</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">of FreeBSD by minimizing waste of their time ( ... ) and resources .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">How ?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">This is a different story outside of this thread .<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">I am very sorry to waste your time .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">With my best wishes for your future and your work .</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Mehmet Erol Sanliturk<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 3:17 PM Stefan Blachmann <<a href="mailto:sblachmann@gmail.com">sblachmann@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 1/4/22, Warner Losh <<a href="mailto:imp@bsdimp.com" target="_blank">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br> > 15 or 20 years [...]<br> > main reason laptops stopped suspending in the early 2000s... [...]<br> > And the INT xx interface is unavailable on amd64 after we<br> > enter long mode<br> <br> First, you mentioned a hacking session in the "early 2000s".<br> This makes me wonder whether you might mistake some other thing from<br> the distance of time, as UEFI was no real thing until ~2010, and was<br> never a thing on platforms other than amd64 also. Suspend/resume on<br> FreeBSD only appeared much later, too.<br> <br> Second, there is kernel functionality to call real mode interrupt<br> handlers from long mode, which manage switching to real mode and back.<br> Just an example, these are being used by vt (via vesa.ko) to switch vesa modes.<br> <br> So I do not see why this real mode access infrastructure could not<br> also be used to make a call to C000:(PCI PROM Programming interface<br> code offset), or the respective segment address where the actual VGA<br> BIOS is, to have it initialize the int 10h interface handler, if a<br> hybrid/dual graphics card BIOS is present.<br> I think a single function "InitializeVGABIOSifpresent" to enable<br> access to VGA/VESA BIOS functionality might actually be fairly easy to<br> implement.<br> Furthermore, there is no need at all to access hardware specific stuff<br> like you mentioned, as the necessary functionality is completely<br> covered by the int 10h interface.<br> <br> Imho it could be worth to allocate a small part of the sponsoring<br> budget to put a bounty to motivate people (including possibly me) to<br> implement these improvements regarding suspend/resume and enhanced sc<br> and vt usability.<br> <br> <br> <br> On 1/4/22, Warner Losh <<a href="mailto:imp@bsdimp.com" target="_blank">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br> > On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:14 AM Stefan Blachmann <<a href="mailto:sblachmann@gmail.com" target="_blank">sblachmann@gmail.com</a>><br> > wrote:<br> ><br> >> On 1/4/22, Warner Losh <<a href="mailto:imp@bsdimp.com" target="_blank">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br> >> > Not without loading the xorg graphics stuff... graphics chips from the<br> >> last<br> >> > 15 or 20 years have lots of chip specific state that only the graphics<br> >> > stuff knows about... IIRC, it only knows about it because it put the<br> >> > graphics into a known state... it's the main reason laptops stopped<br> >> > suspending in the early 2000s... it looks to be a lot of work for a<br> >> > relatively rare use case...<br> >><br> >> UEFI GOP seems to have the necessary functionalities<br> >> (<a href="https://wiki.osdev.org/GOP#Get_the_Current_Mode" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.osdev.org/GOP#Get_the_Current_Mode</a>) so I guess the work<br> >> required would be limited (restore mode and redraw screen from<br> >> buffer).<br> >><br> ><br> > UEFI GOP isn't available after we start the kernel, so this is a<br> > non-starter.<br> > It works great in the boot loader, but not so good after we boot. It could<br> > work<br> > for S3 sleep to disk where we actually reboot to restore the machine state,<br> > but we don't have sleep to disk today :(<br> ><br> ><br> >> With non-UEFI or old UGA UEFI implementations possibly one could use<br> >> the dual BIOS´ CSM part. Just call the CSM BIOS init to set up GPU and<br> >> the int 10h interface, and then set previously used mode+redraw.<br> >> BTW, doing that also could both enable vt(4) to change<br> >> modes/resolutions and using sc on UEFI computers.<br> >><br> ><br> > Ah, if only things were really that simple... I tried variations on that<br> > hack years ago when suspending broke due to video. And it<br> > works for some machines, but not others, was the quick assessment<br> > I made. And the INT xx interface is unavailable on amd64 after we<br> > enter long mode (I tried this out on my then-current FreeBSD laptop<br> > which was 32 bit only, so 15 years ago?).<br> ><br> > Warner<br> ><br> ><br> >> But I think you are right, there are probably not too many users who<br> >> would make use of that.<br> >><br> >><br> >> On 1/4/22, Warner Losh <<a href="mailto:imp@bsdimp.com" target="_blank">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br> >> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 11:03 PM Stefan Blachmann <<a href="mailto:sblachmann@gmail.com" target="_blank">sblachmann@gmail.com</a>><br> >> > wrote:<br> >> ><br> >> >> Implementing S3 suspend/resume was a sponsored project itself.<br> >> >> However, it still does only work when at xorg graphics mode, which<br> >> >> already was topic in this thread.<br> >> >> When using it from console, no matter sc or vt, it still hangs with<br> >> >> dark screen and unresponsive keyboard.<br> >> >> Could finishing the suspend/resume work be sponsored, so that it also<br> >> >> works on console-only computers?<br> >> >><br> >> ><br> >> > Not without loading the xorg graphics stuff... graphics chips from the<br> >> last<br> >> > 15 or 20 years have lots of chip specific state that only the graphics<br> >> > stuff knows about... IIRC, it only knows about it because it put the<br> >> > graphics into a known state... it's the main reason laptops stopped<br> >> > suspending in the early 2000s... it looks to be a lot of work for a<br> >> > relatively rare use case...<br> >> ><br> >> > Warner<br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >> >> On 12/30/21, Joseph Mingrone <<a href="mailto:jrm@freebsd.org" target="_blank">jrm@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br> >> >> > On Thu, 2021-12-30 at 14:15, Joseph Mingrone <jrm@FreeBSD.org><br> >> >> > wrote:<br> >> >> ><br> >> >> >> On Thu, 2021-12-30 at 08:05, Özkan KIRIK <<a href="mailto:ozkan.kirik@gmail.com" target="_blank">ozkan.kirik@gmail.com</a>><br> >> >> >> wrote:<br> >> >> >>> I've ideas about enhancing the routing architecture. Is it<br> >> >> >>> possible<br> >> >> >>> to<br> >> >> >>> add to wiki?<br> >> >> ><br> >> >> >> Certainly. Please do.<br> >> >> ><br> >> >> > The link again is <a href="https://wiki.freebsd.org/2021FoundationCFI" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.freebsd.org/2021FoundationCFI</a><br>; >> >> ><br> >> >><br> >> >><br> >> ><br> >><br> ><br> <br> </blockquote></div>
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