From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 20:05:44 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75C4E65B53 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B296D649C9 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B1AB7E65B52; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0580E65B51 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CD61649C8 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LaWAeiNgQss4TLaWBeihVr; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 13:05:41 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=JuuBlIwC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=9sSjY8p1AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=JmL9nBSCWtccBR9YgY4A:9 a=b2yaBeXgq5SMIyIm:21 a=KhdD9OY-Bk8fb47e:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=ub54wNWiXv_DzeFsgEJW:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1A0B1A21; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB3K5aId034726; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:05:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB3K5Zki034723; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: Hans Petter Selasky , Cy Schubert , Warner Losh , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from "Rodney W. Grimes" of "Sun, 03 Dec 2017 08:55:18 -0800." <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 12:05:35 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNQMzfmO2SnOpBMNHnIxWF1Po1//8j/X36ltAMKvQ/Z1vVL8tfvdFMbxeyczwAu0aSBgaFYa5nSol5PW6HUPsDl+qoOO0bCdVsUOKW2LZ4Xr4/Bmbr4N qQ6PbzNACD7XQ10RUTyqAYD78PIJbF7JE23EVjf/zxYw8JGWJ+QWLoc5Qe1McOyEjq4bBJiRvITrae7BO9WM23Fdoa2IB/+AsiKDdVa2UjElAv1mh98NDKHo mI8LyAXhUbm9ArsBo8V1esF8TgKG7fSEVdnggLYqE7KRE/GZZLwmPMcBhqDVycZg6usgu0HmexUwBP+uxQLhpQ== X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 20:05:44 -0000 In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W. Gri mes" writes: > > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > In message l.c > > > om> > > > , Warner Losh writes: > > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > >> > > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge > > >>> > > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very differe > nt > > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat > > >>> instead. > > >> > > >> > > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need t > o > > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the co > de. > > >> Is ufd working for you? > > > > > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I said > > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge them. > > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) maybe it > 's > > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we have t > he > > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would be > > > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > > > >> > > >> > > >>>> > > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > > >>> deprecated, > > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has bee > n a > > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > >>> > > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for t > he > > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD driv > es. > > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the abil > ity > > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some for > m of > > >>> support fd or ufd. > > >> > > >> > > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > > > > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether it b > e > > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for subsequent > > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought to my > > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old flop > py > > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing machi > ne > > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > > > > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD drives > > > not too many years from now... > > > > > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) itself > > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB fd can > > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 and > > > remove in 13? > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > > still important: > > > > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us-military-uses-8-inch-fl > oppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > > > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy people > > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support > > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows > > installation to read such disks. > > > > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. > > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source code. > > > > --HPS > > I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now. If you remove > the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they > well just compile a customer kernel and do there work. So using this as > a "is anyone using it" is a straw man. > > That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal > with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD > deal with it using my prefered OS. > > Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find > a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal > with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system > as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD > in the name of some progress. > > **RANT ON** > > Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so > my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, > it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers > can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 > lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass > of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c > running? > > I further know of someone who just told me they completed > a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB > zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person > is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done > with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form > of support. It is possible that person netbooted an > older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types > of abilities. > > **DOUBLE RANT** > > Having been gone from the project for a long time and > looking at it from the outside my observation is that > FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and > a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few > years. > > Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection > of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that > has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken > cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it > to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken. > > If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise > you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle > comparied to the ocean we shall create. > > Rather than spend time running around the tree finding > rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious > effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has > rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it. > > ** END RANTS** I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) controllers and take a poke at it. USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into the existing fdformat. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.