From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Feb 18 16:33:05 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03CA214E1ADD for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 16:33:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x844.google.com (mail-qt1-x844.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::844]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C4136FECB for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 16:33:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x844.google.com with SMTP id b8so19789867qtr.9 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 08:33:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JbPDdJJOLofwgwGdEbIEx/dCWpVs2snSZ1cmDe2RnNM=; b=JAKSsvkKxc7IEgmIJoTH99uI7Q21O7jLY/xZAHdijCiZD2bc6/HSeGw3DiaZZmtvy1 cF77wyqde9PD5HWJ0t/zeyr5+l5hJW6bBMTx9M93Og3+Rb5GCQaqq/M0D9/mww/o0TvX HpqjupzdA6HhaX2sGwy0hAnaPqmaWcDzDk2d6gJA8o2X9QEj6ETpP+2QHIIzb5j/WZzP fmD0GAiML8PLK+dYEHyKtCuh0nb6oyLS0tpR8CIvIHFPG33GeNtEituo0GE/p5tpXtLu psLCdX/9jUF5YK3ugd13OokFMIcMRVMrrfNKGtX13ql5iQHGQr66WWeklN/RurIkui3E LunQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JbPDdJJOLofwgwGdEbIEx/dCWpVs2snSZ1cmDe2RnNM=; b=V2DXY1cT0Odg3W7QADhA/prRxWn5NQGQ1bzNjuw5+KAvhHPUeTN9HvhkZNG5gAljW9 oMSXOaYYXtRgZtzkpk7sj10VPq1e1umunDbuUvTku2UBFJN5pANM+u1WS9/ZkgcWtt5u bUfNARuK2JFoVI1TW6KRdwl9rNhf4UXew6iPq+TXgBH8blpMYG7RK1mR0z+OVZMna2zp jaRXSAQWicedZv2EDck5FLVcOa2v3yI+YIKAEipoLdqlwSBlaAoD5yQE5RtWnxfgUtue y6tiUOdpXmSo6YMI+wx9B6hzxh/QSJ0/hFTF3Wm+dlX59aUeCuSvMJQXxnWwrMZU+Nal zQ2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZcPR5oCfDvHOfxAgMHy2ZvDaNB7JGjRaX+qjwJ0aqxdd8I8lMV M5XBF3Dl5HslbwO+8xwWZh6zIKwkyRA0SGxWyFbXPg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYzVQr9Tm2ckvRY2KImR+Riqhy0Ph/IzwZWnF3ilv9W3XQCZTmWvrOKeY3vPInYlcNjDpqxzRzhJXmovhp4BFw= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:e98f:: with SMTP id z15mr18267976qvn.115.1550507583621; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 08:33:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190218155656.2mefeqixly6h25us@ivaldir.net> <201902181611.x1IGBQMD005946@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201902181611.x1IGBQMD005946@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 09:32:52 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Baptiste Daroussin , Niclas Zeising , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Stefan Blachmann , FreeBSD Current , Steve Kargl , Vladimir Kondratyev X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2C4136FECB X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=JAKSsvkK X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.26 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.03)[-0.026,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.18)[0.181,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.06)[ip: (4.33), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.57), asn: 15169(-1.98), country: US(-0.07)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.83)[-0.825,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT1.aspmx.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 16:33:05 -0000 On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:12 AM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 07:12:24AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > > On 2/18/19 12:06 PM, Stefan Blachmann wrote: > > > > > On 2/18/19, Vladimir Kondratyev wrote: > > > > >> On 2019-02-17 21:03, Steve Kargl wrote: > > > > >>> Anyone have insight into what evdev is? > > > > >> evdev.ko is a small in-kernel library that makes all your input > events > > > > >> like keyboard presses libinput-compatible. > > > > > > > > > > And libinput was created by the Freedesktop Wayland team to create > > > > > pressure on OS people to make their systems Wayland-compatible. > > > > > > > > > >>> I do not need nor what these modules loaded. > > > > >> I think removing "option EVDEV_SUPPORT" from your kernel config > should > > > > >> disable most of evdev.ko dependencies > > > > > > > > > > Shouldn't the EVDEV_SUPPORT default be off on FreeBSD anyway, as > well > > > > > as libinput not be part of the standard packages? > > > > > > > > > > The Freedesktop Wayland team consists of people with the Kay > Sievers > > > > > mentality, which made Linus Torvalds ban his contributions. They do > > > > > not care about the bugs they introduce, forcing others to clean up > the > > > > > mess they create. > > > > > > > > > > I'd be glad if FreeBSD would keep clean of following that Wayland > fad... > > > > > > > > EVDEV_SUPPORT was enabled in GENERIC on 13 and 12-stable to improve > > > > input device handling in X and Wayland. Not having it means that a > lot > > > > of input devices stop working, or work much worse. > > > > > > > > We in the FreeBSD Graphics Team are working very hard to improve the > > > > FreeBSD Desktop experience, since it is an avenue to recruit new > users, > > > > and make current users use FreeBSD more. > > > > > > Sadly your execution on that seems to be missing the mark, > > > telling people they have to go get a port now to get drm working > > > because it could not be maintained in base, and then telling them, > > > oh, you need this new code in base so that it is so much easier > > > to use graphical stuff this way. > > > > > > These seem to be conflicting stories. > > > > > You are missing the point, one does not evolve as fast as the other, > meaning > > one can be maintained within usual freebsd lifecycle, the other cannot > or it > > becomes very painful. > > So to ditch our 5 years support model, kick the code out of the tree and > make the users suffer? The support model is suppose to be under review, > and IMHO, if kicking functional code out of the base system is to make > it possible to meet some support model we should defanitly take a very > close look at that issue. > > The code has simply gone from being in base to a few git repositories > which are probably going to rot every time a breaking ABI change occurs > and we wend up with un happy users, un happy developers and bugmisters > who have to close bogus bug reports. > > Have we really moved the state of the art forward by this action, simply > in the name of "we could not suppor that code?" > I don't know. I think the fact that drm2 doesn't support anything newer than 5-year-old hardware is a pretty convincing evidence that the old way is broken and doesn't work. Warner