From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Sep 20 21:15:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-94-248-46.mmcable.com [24.94.248.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 59F9F37B411 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 95591 invoked by uid 100); 21 Sep 2001 04:15:29 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15274.48864.994229.51687@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:15:28 -0500 To: "Daniel O'Connor" , "Kevin Oberman" Cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: RE: hw.ata.wc && hw.ata.tags && softupdates short question In-Reply-To: References: <200109210329.f8L3TGR30860@ptavv.es.net> <20010920211704.C7820@gateway.bogus> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel O'Connor types: > On 20-Sep-2001 Nuno Teixeira wrote: > > For what I heard, I concluded that we shouldn't use softupdates with write > > cache turned on. The first time that I tried this I loose a lot of work > > due to a power failure. > You shouldn't use write caching, period. Matt Dillon disagrees. From the tuning(7) man page: There is a new experimental feature for IDE hard drives called hw.ata.tags (you also set this in the bootloader) which allows write caching to be safely turned on. This brings SCSI tagging features to IDE drives. In other words, write caching is safe if the drive and driver supports tagged queuing. For IDE drives, Matt goes on to say: As of this writing only IBM DPTA and DTLA drives support the feature. Warning! These drives apparently have quality control problems and I do not recommend purchasing them at this time. If you need performance, go with SCSI. > No, write caching tells the drive "Please lie to me about command completion" > so when the OS performs a write the drive caches it and says "yes that's on > disk", when it isn't. Tagged queuing allows the writes to complete in a different order than they were issued. This allows the drives to both have an effective write cache, *and* to notify the controller when sectors are actually on the disk. Kevin Oberman types: > 1. IBM drives that do tagging are claimed to be safe. The way tagging > works should assure that the critical metadata is always written to > disk. To clarify, it isn't the drive that knows about critical metadata. That's softupdates doing it's job. Softupdates has to trust the drive to make sure the critical metadata is on the disk. This is why write caching sans tagged queuing and softupdates are such a bad idea. This is also why a file system with soft updates enabled simply ignore the async flag on any mount request. > It's also worth noting that Soren reversed himself and made wc default > a few months after 4.3 was released. I assume it defaults to "on" in > 4.4, although I have not checked. This makes me suspect that he > decided that the risk was reasonable. But I really should not speak > for him. If you wade through the mail lists during the 4.3 beta and release periods, what you'll find is that disk performance took a major hit - some people claimed as much as a factor of 6. No one discussed any change in the risk assessment. I think he turned it back on for the same reason he turned it off: "popular demand" . http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message