From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 22 05:49:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B9E1065672 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:49:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (pancho.soaustin.net [76.74.250.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6568FC13 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:49:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 144ED56172; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:49:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:49:03 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: vermaden Message-ID: <20120122054903.GB12469@lonesome.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:22:06 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:49:04 -0000 On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 08:07:43AM +0100, vermaden wrote: > I submit PRs and try to help test them as some developer/committer > will pick up the PR, submit a patch to test, but it was MANY times > that the response from developer/committer was way too long that > I even DID NOT HAVE THE HARDWARE anymore ... I don't have a magic wand to solve this problem. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and it's just a hard problem to solve in general. There are several aspects: - so many computers are very broken (specifically, horrible BIOS bugs). - most committers only have one or two computers that they work with. - most committers have their own tasklist, and "support users" is something they never have time to get around to. "support users" is, in general, something Open Source OSes do not do very well (at least without a paid support staff, as is the case in some of the Linux distros.) But what's discouraging for the people that try to clean up the stale PRs is that they get yelled at when they try to do so. Thus, they tend to get demotivated as well. Support/bug triage is hard and unrewarding work. People can tend to feel that they're being blamed for bugs that they had nothing to do with creating, and burn out. > Here is one of the messages that I sent by then to the mailing lists: > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-doc/2007-May/012507.html > > ... and NOTHING HAPPENED, no one told me what to do next, > should I sent a SGML version or anything ... or just GTFO. I'm sorry that nothing happened, but unfortunately that's common. Submitters sometimes have to be persistent, and maybe even catch new committers when they sign up. Our documentation is certainly in need of updating. > What I have done about these 'Ports issues'? I contacted these > ports maintainers and said that both RC script and AIO support for > samba should be enabled by default by linking to several threads > at FreeBSD Forums that the problem is known and exists ... and I > did not get ANY RESPONSE till this very day, not even a GTFO > (which would probably be better then nothing). When you don't get a response from a maintainer, your best bet is to file a PR against the port. If the maintainer doesn't respond, then after 2 weeks any FreeBSD ports committer is free to work on the PR and, if they agree with you, commit it via maintainer-timeout. We don't have a way to track emails that various users send to individual maintainers. With a PR open, we have a way to do that. We also track maintainer-timeouts, and these can eventually lead to a maintainer reset. > I got these maintainers email addresses from http://freshports.org > page, are they up-to-date there? They should be, but looking on cvsweb will tell you for certain. IIRC on each freshports page there is a link to cvsweb for the port. > It's not that people does not try to help, a lot tried (and I am still > trying), but its VERY unpleasant to have awareness, that you dedicated > your time, tried to help as much as possible, made some steps to achieve > that ... and no one even cares about that. I think it's not "don't care", I think it's that "unable to cope with number of incoming PRs and other requests for changes and support". As I type this, there are 1122 ports PRs (6272 total PRs). On most days, around 40 come in. It would take a few dozen more volunteers to be able to keep up with them all. mcl