From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Mar 20 14:15:12 2021 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CA85AA06C for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:15:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2jTC4NmBz4YVD for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:15:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [IPv6:2607:fb90:a350:998f:e9fd:df9c:7ad3:d244] (unknown [172.58.140.141]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C23C74E696; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:15:10 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:15:09 -0500 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210319101040.00005c35@seibercom.net> <6054BE1B.50706@gmail.com> <20210319130249.000042a1@seibercom.net> <5a8cf0be-646a-a433-2428-9700a47c1bf0@att.net> <20210319140448.00007521@seibercom.net> <20210319213214.4f8ddf55@archlinux> <20210320063427.000040f5@seibercom.net> To: Mohammad Noureldin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4F2jTC4NmBz4YVD X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.40 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RBL_DBL_DONT_QUERY_IPS(0.00)[128.135.20.70:from]; SPAMHAUS_ZRD(0.00)[128.135.20.70:from:127.0.2.255]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:15:12 -0000 > On Mar 20, 2021, at 7:01 AM, Mohammad Noureldin = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I am new to this mailing list, using FreeBSD/*BSD on and off. Joined = the > mailing list because I have a couple of project ideas that I want to = build > on top of *BSD. >=20 > Though I am new, and maybe relative to many others here I am a newbie, > allow me to comment on all the aspects addressed (so far) in this = email > thread: >=20 > - "It is easy to build a new (custom) kernel", "Unix is made by = technical > people for technical people", etc: >=20 > Though historically it is true that Unix like systems are made by = technical > people for technical people, it doesn't mean that it has to stay like = this. > IMHO, such motto causes a great piece of Engineering like *BSD to = loose > ground for other Unix like systems, namely Linux and all it's Distros. = Not > that I am a Linux hatter, I have respect to both. >=20 > Related to that, I don't believe that it is a good message to FreeBSD > users, that if you don't know how to build a new kernel, then there is = no > place for you here. IMHO, this really hurts the image of the community = of > FreeBSD specially in the eyes of new commers. Notice these email = messages > are archived. That was said by only one - very loud - member of FreeBSD community, = people here are much milder and way more polite. And I for one do not = share the view that FreeBSD in particular and open source systems in = general are only for people with [some] technical knowledge. 1. Installation of FreeBSD is quite streamlined (and same are Debian, = Ubuntu=E2=80=A6) 2. Interaction with machine is same nice as closed source systems' once = you have Xwindow installed (here FreeBSD may need a bit effort compared = to Linuxes I mentioned) 3. Compiling kernel. In general this suggest that I repeat here what I = tell my users who never used Linux or UNIX: how many commands do you = need to know to start using shell? 4 - 5, I=E2=80=99ll show you them in = a minute. Then you just start, =E2=80=A6 and this is really true. = Compiling kernel is just another 3-4 commands. It is simple, no need to = hold people from doing it > - About the problem reported: >=20 > Thanks for all who went through the long list of comments on that PR = and > explained in brief that it is a USB controller/HW problem. >=20 > In that respect, I do agree with Jerry and others wondering how other = OS(s) > can manage running on the same HW (in case that has been proven) ? I > believe it worths looking at that. I would have volunteered to dig = deeper > into that, but I know I don't have the required experience (unless = someone > is willing to mentor me ? :) ) No comment on this specific troublesome hardware. Linux in my = observation has many =E2=80=9Cworkarounds=E2=80=9D to deal with = misbehaving hardware. FreeBSD may be acting =E2=80=9Ccleaner=E2=80=9D = here, hence stays more stringent system, but experts may correct me. I = still remember one chipset which is NOT worth effort writing driver for: = BCM 43xx Broadcom WiFi. That is 32 bit chip, sitting on 64 bit bus, no = need to add more detail after that. > And responding to that:"OK, just shut up and go install another OS", = is not > a community building attitude at all. I agree, saying that is not polite. Better just ignore the OP. Which I = observe many experts did, though several tried to help. Way back before = first asking for help on one of technical lists I read list etiquette = carefully, and there are several things to keep in mind, the OP didn=E2=80= =99t show some of them (not all definitely). Just some of what I = remember: Before asking for help, try do resolve issue yourself within your = ability Describe what you tried and give all details; this simultaneously will = show that you did put effort on your side, then you will less likely to = be ignored Disrespect to others is likely to make you ignored Read carefully suggestions and try to follow them. Report what worked = and what didn=E2=80=99t. You at least have to respect time and effort of = experts trying to help you. -- I stop here just by saying, please, everybody, do not take this as an = attempt of =E2=80=9Cmentoring=E2=80=9D, but someone may find truth in = the above; I for one did. I have just one comment on the hardware choice: this one is one of Dell = =E2=80=9Cconsumer grade=E2=80=9D products, which is not intended to = last, I wouldn=E2=80=99t choose it myself. They look cheaper upfront, = but they end up more expensive in a log run. Dell OptiPlex (not much = more expensive) would have been my choice of the same class of hardware. Be it me, I would go with one or both of solutions already suggested in = the thread: 1. Disable in BIOS on board USB and add USB card if necessary 2. Recompile kernel with switched off USB-3. The first for me would be = preferable, just to not keep recompiling kernel once kernel security = patches are released (but that is me, lazy person) Good luck, Jerry, in resolving your technical issue. Valeri > And for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a second that Jerry = is > lazy or not skilled enough, helping him and fixing the problem or = clearly > explaining a solution without bashing him, is not just for Jerry, it = is for > the whole community, for the current and new members who will be = interested > to join in the future. >=20 > Jerry, I am curious, did you have time to try one the suggestions, > specially running FreeBSD on a VM to see if it still suffers from the = same > problem ? >=20 > You all have a great day/evening >=20 > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry wrote: >=20 >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:30:00 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Ralf Mardorf = >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: >>>>> Void uses a runit init system with no systemd >>>>=20 >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For >>>> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux >>>> without systemd is a bottomless pit. >>>>=20 >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>>>> Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then = you >>>>> should not be using any Unix variant >>>>=20 >>>> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the >>>> kernel might be less effort, than migrating to another operating >>>> system. If you would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get >>>> used to systemd. Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you >>>> chose a Linux distro that doesn't use systemd, you likely will >>>> experience all kinds of trouble, if you want to customize your >>>> install. >>>=20 >>> I used that tone because it really is simple and if you can't/won't >>> recompile the kernel before throwing the baby out despite with the = bath >>> water then you really don't have the skills/desire needed to use = Unix >>> effectively... Just to show how trivial it really is >>>=20 >>> 1. Edit /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/GENERIC (or i386 instead of amd64 if >>> your still using it) to comment out the xhci line (line 327 in >>> 12.2-RELASE-pl3) to remove USB 3.0 support >>> 2. cd /usr/src >>> 3. make kernel >>> 4. etcupdate >>> 5. reboot >>>=20 >>> Done.... how hard is that? >>=20 >> I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not >> install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the = installation >> of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the >> screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad = infinitum. >>=20 >> By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies = the >> use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & = better. >>=20 >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they = never >> were able to get it right. >>=20 >> -- >> Jerry >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"