From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Jan 12 17:52:13 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694E0A6C377 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:52:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan_partelly@rdsor.ro) Received: from mail.rdsor.ro (mail.rdsor.ro [193.231.238.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024A617C2; Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:52:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan_partelly@rdsor.ro) Received: from email.rdsor.ro (ftp.rdsor.ro [193.231.238.4]) by mail.rdsor.ro (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223AA232B4; Tue, 12 Jan 2016 19:52:11 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 19:52:24 +0200 From: dan_partelly To: Daniel Eischen Cc: Konstantin Belousov , FreeBSD Hackers , Hubbard Jordan Subject: Re: relaunchd: a portable clone of launchd In-Reply-To: References: <5687D3A9.5050400@NTLWorld.com> <817860B6-5D67-41A3-ADD7-9757C7E67C35@gmail.com> <07D83705-D89F-4125-B57B-920EDEBC8A85@rdsor.ro> <70975696-3E07-48B9-BFD1-3C2F51E715BB@icloud.com> <76E6AF2A-917B-41EB-883A-C27AB2BB9F71@ixsystems.com> <20160112125948.GH3625@kib.kiev.ua> Message-ID: <6af37e1171c480dd1984409bbd029d0d@rdsor.ro> X-Sender: dan_partelly@rdsor.ro User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.4-beta X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:52:13 -0000 >>It depends on how you define what is a good level of verboseness, >> and you can have that in pretty much any language. Sure, I get your point, and you are perfectly right. Winodws ntoskrnl is clearly C , but I am extremely sure that their verbosity (or perceived verbosity) is an asset , not a liability, for their source code maintenance. Some argue that MS systems team botched with the hungarian notation, and the app team used it better, but ... even so I found it useful. And yeah, Cutler didn't let any smarty-pants say "oh, "XX_CREATE_XX" is too verbose, let's contract it to "XX_CREAT_XX". On Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:20:02 -0500 (EST), Daniel Eischen wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Dan Partelly wrote: > >> Verbose is not bad , Konstantin . I actually prefer verbose source. >> It is easy to read and understand. It is preferable all day long to >> clever hacks and obfuscated ways of writing code >> >> Ill tell you one thing. Years ago, when Ms Leaked on their site >> ntoskrnl.exe symbols with private debug information , I dint had too >> much trouble understanding a lot of the implementation details from >> the kernel , exactly because MS is verbose. And that .. in WinDbg >> assembly. The source would have been much much more easier to read. >> >> Yeah, MS’s APIs are not the best I give you that. But regarding >> *readability* , Windows is leaps and bounds ahead of any Unix I seen. >> It is extremely easy to figure out what a certain function does, how >> they use data structures, and what the members of said data structures >> represent. >> >> I like verbosity. Makes figuring things easier, makes maintenance >> easier. I frankly hope to spend as little of possible of my life >> reading terse source code. This is also why I like Ada language. Its a >> joy to read Ada source. > > Ok, speaking as a software engineer for 31 years and has been > developing and maintaining Ada programs for the last 25 of those > years... Ada is just a language, I've seen both bad design and > good design in it, as well as in C and Java. I've seen massive > over verboseness in Ada and it makes maintaining it a nightmare. > When your coding guidelines have a maximum line length of 132 > or greater characters, and lines _routinely_ go _well_ over 80 > characters, because of package hierarchy, and package and > subprogram (methods) names being very long, you know something > is wrong. > > It depends on how you define what is a good level of verboseness, > and you can have that in pretty much any language. You just > need to herd cats to follow the guidelines. > > I echo the sentiments about CORBA. Being forced to use > bloated middleware to do something simple... I have to > stop thinking about it because it makes me angry ;-)