Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:41:17 -0700 From: Juli Mallett <jmallett@FreeBSD.org> To: "Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com> Cc: Joshua Lee <yid@softhome.net>, dave@jetcafe.org, tlambert2@mindspring.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did evolution fail? Message-ID: <20020906154116.C30018@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20020906082300.M94577-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan>; from nwestfal@directvinternet.com on Fri, Sep 06, 2002 at 09:18:43AM -0700 References: <20020905190756.A54861@FreeBSD.org> <20020906082300.M94577-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan>
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* De: "Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com> [ Data: 2002-09-06 ] [ Subjecte: Re: Why did evolution fail? ] > > > On Thu, 5 Sep 2002, Juli Mallett wrote: > > > * De: "Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com> [ Data: 2002-09-05 ] > > [ Subjecte: Re: Why did evolution fail? ] > > > So why are you attacking what my religion teaches? Aren't you just > > > being a little bit hypocritical? Do you think that Christians just > > > made up the doctrine of hell? Where do you think it came from? Did > > > > In ancient Hebrew tribal religion, there were two sects, one who worshipped > > the god of death, one who worshipped the god of life. The god of death was > > stronger than the god of life, and those who worshipped the god of life > > were jealous, and the jealousy became a part of the persona of the god of > > life, to excuse the hatered of others who worshipped stronger gods, and > > over time, the jealousy caused them to annex the attributes of the god of > > death, into the god of life. From there, Jahweh/... as known today (and > > iirc, as the god of life was known then), Judaism was born after ages > > passed, and from there, we end up with Christianity these days. It would > > be more correct to say that Hebrew tribal elders made up hell; you are > > forgetting that the roots of Christianity are in Judaism. > > > > And of course they made it up, it fulfills a number of low-level desires > > of the human psyche. > > Interesting theory, as psychological arguments go. Not that I totally > reject psychological arguments, Paul uses a kind of psychological argument > in Romans 1 when he tells us that man by nature suppresses the truth he > knows about his Creator. Dr. Greg Bahnsen wrote his doctorol dissertation > on this very subject, the phenomena of self-deception. He wrote a > boiled down version of it for the Westminster Theological Journal in > 1995 which can be read online at: > > http://66.216.78.115/articles/pa207.htm > > Having said all that, psychological arguments can't really stand on their > own without some supporting arguments. The reason for this is that I can > just come back and say that your theory is just a rationalization in an > attempt to deny your creator. And not only that, it fits in quite nicely > with what Paul says in Romans 1! Isn't it nice how that works? Now what > have I just done here? What I've done is completely reversed the argument > on you, so what we are left with is psychologizing each other, which isn't > very productive. So what is the answer? Who's right and who's wrong? Both and neither, of course. > > > > Not that I'm not a religious person myself, it's just important to remember > > that all of this came from tribal traditions and warring, and that all of > > Wicca came from a lecherous old man who decided to take from Celtic and > > old European religions throughout the ages, and that Jesus was a man, and > > a great man, and a man who said great things. > > > > That doesn't mean any of it isn't true. Just because one "makes something up" > > doesn't mean it's false. It could be inherent in-born knowledge. > > > > I prefer to believe that all beliefs are valid, most are probably somewhat > > right, and none are "wrong". > > People have a tendency to develop beliefs that approximate the truth. > This is because, though they try to suppress their knowledge of God, > they can never completely erase that knowledge, for to do so would > require giving up everything they take for granted, and that is > impossible to do short of suicide. But then, in the end, this really > isn't an escape either. 8-) It is funny that some other religions would say the same things of Christians. Why is it so hard to see the pattern of human influence and superiority and conclude that either none are right (it is all human) or god takes many forms (all are right) or some other Universal Truth binds people to these things (all are right)? It seems silly that god would only help the people in one place of a world he is said to have wrought of his own will. It seems more likely that (s)he would implant some genetic (for lack of a better word) knowledge into the people of the world, that drives them to fulfill their purpose. Much like taking knowledge to be the kan-kan of the tribal/racial karass one could erect from the models Kurt Vonnegut uses in Cat's Cradle. I've always been drawn to earthy religions, and felt the pain of the Indian (Native American) people very strongly. Recently found out that I do have Indian (NA) blood. I've always felt ties to the fate of those of Occitania and have blood of French and Italian people in my veins. My strong Desi spiritual attrction has yet to be explained, possibly a post-indo-european bloodline to those in Italy or Spain or France or Germany. Who knows. All I know is the Implicit Knowledge of Truth that I have always felt, and always hold dear. I also have one axom (sp?) I must write down some day in a book where I keep things (it complements the copy of the ttc that my girlfriend gave me very well) which is essentially that when one takes something so seriously they cannot have a sense of humour about it, they are taking it too seriously. > > It's all about people and perception. Unfortunately, this universe seems > > built with the intentions to get people to look beyond perception - things > > have inherent beauty and structure at levels below what the eye can see, > > people are not always what they appear to be, and enjoying it is what really > > matters, to me. > > This is all a Christian is asking for, that people would see "the God who > is there," as Francis Schaeffer would put it. Read "The Power of Myth", "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence", and look at a book on Chaos, Fractals, or Escher. :) -- Juli Mallett <jmallett@FreeBSD.org> | FreeBSD: The Power To Serve Will break world for fulltime employment. | finger jmallett@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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