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Date:      Wed, 6 Jun 2007 21:44:50 -0400
From:      Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>
To:        Eric Anholt <eric@anholt.net>
Cc:        cvs-ports@FreeBSD.org, Pav Lucistnik <pav@FreeBSD.org>, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, ports-committers@FreeBSD.org, Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>
Subject:   Re: cvs commit: ports/x11/libX11 Makefile distinfo manpages pkg-plist ports/x11/libX11/files patch-src_ImUtil.c
Message-ID:  <20070607014450.GA17218@rot13.obsecurity.org>
In-Reply-To: <1181173452.30365.20.camel@vonnegut>
References:  <200706061625.l56GP3lo043614@repoman.freebsd.org> <20070606200421.GA5453@rot13.obsecurity.org> <1181165084.76200.1.camel@ikaros.oook.cz> <20070606214112.GB6716@rot13.obsecurity.org> <1181173452.30365.20.camel@vonnegut>

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On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 04:44:11PM -0700, Eric Anholt wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 17:41 -0400, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 11:24:44PM +0200, Pav Lucistnik wrote:
> > > Kris Kennaway p??e v st 06. 06. 2007 v 16:04 -0400:
> > > > On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 04:25:03PM +0000, Pav Lucistnik wrote:
> > > > > pav         2007-06-06 16:25:03 UTC
> > > > >=20
> > > > >   FreeBSD ports repository
> > > > >=20
> > > > >   Modified files:
> > > > >     x11/libX11           Makefile distinfo manpages pkg-plist=20
> > > > >   Removed files:
> > > > >     x11/libX11/files     patch-src_ImUtil.c=20
> > > > >   Log:
> > > > >   - Update to 1.1.2
> > > > >   - Don't remove lib/X11, it's in mtree
> > > >=20
> > > > BTW, we had decided not to do minor updates to the X.org ports with=
out
> > > > a good reason.  The disruption caused by frequent tiny updates is
> > > > tremendous.
> > >=20
> > > Why not? There are no consequences in updating to dot-dot releases he=
re.
> > > I was told by flz and anholt that I'm free to help out keeping X ports
> > > up to date.
> >=20
> > The main consequences are:
> >=20
> > * Forcing the package clusters to frequently rebuild all of X, slowing
> > down all package builds and the rate at which we can do other testing
> > on pointyhat.
> >=20
> > * The inevitable problems with commits to "deep" ports like this one
> > which will take out most of the ports tree when they fail to build,
> > leading to yet more delays in publication of usable package sets.
> >=20
> > What was decided was to only update in batches when x.org makes a new
> > "kamikaze" release (or whatever they are calling it ;), unless there
> > is a really good reason to update a port otherwise.
>=20
> That's an unfortunate policy, given that generally X developers can only
> be bothered to make releases when there's an important fix to push
> out(*).  In this libX11 case, this point release included stability and
> security fixes.  I suggested to Pav that libs updates were a good thing
> to do, since they're generally bugfixing and such, unlike drivers and
> the server (and the protos they depend on) where more context is
> sometimes needed.
>=20
> * The exception to this in the past has been at katamari time, when we
> were rolling up any modules with trivial changes that developers hadn't
> been bothered to release already.  I think I've successfully killed that
> part of the katamari process.

As I said, if there is a really good reason then we can include point
updates, but both FreeBSD developers and X.org developers (I guess
that means you) need to understand that there is a high cost for us to
incorporate them into the ports tree.  The cost becomes prohibitive if
updates are happening somewhere in one of the core X.org ports on a
weekly basis, because the package build clusters will spend most of
their time continuously rebuilding everything that uses X instead of
letting us do real work.

Since you (X.org) have made the decision to effectively push out a
large part of the X.org "product" release engineering (integration
testing and decision-making about components) onto each individual
distro, this is part of the cost of that decision that the X.org
release engineers (you again, I guess) needs to be aware of.  The
FreeBSD project does not have the resources (or desire) to effectively
do full-time incremental X.org release engineering because of X.org
changes being continuously pushed into ports.

The best we can do is periodic batch updates when X.org announces a
significant accumulation of enhancements, with the occasional critical
fix when necessary.  I hope you will factor these constraints into
your development process and work with us to achieve something we can
both live with.

Thanks,
Kris
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