From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 18:41:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C1316A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:41:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from veldy.net (fuggle.veldy.net [209.240.64.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D9243D1F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:41:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from veldy@veldy.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.veldy.net [127.0.0.1]) by veldy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF891CB; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:41:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from veldy.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (fuggle.veldy.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06413-02; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:41:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (fuggle.veldy.net [192.168.1.3]) by veldy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6141D; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:41:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420A5969.5010705@veldy.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 12:41:45 -0600 From: "Thomas T. Veldhouse" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: supraexpress@globaleyes.net References: <20050208034855.D211E43D45@mx1.FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20050208034855.D211E43D45@mx1.FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.85.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at veldy.net cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The case for FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:41:54 -0000 supraexpress@globaleyes.net wrote: >One of the main "stumbling blocks" to using FreeBSD is the installation >process. I have had "lots of fun" (not!) with NetBSD's line-mode/shell-script >"installer" and confusing companion installation instructions, in the past; I >only tried OpenBSD once and don't remember anything about its installation >process, but I seem to recall that it was similar to NetBSD's; FreeBSD's >'DOS-like menu' system is a travisty and IS PROBABLY THE ONE THING THAT TURNS >OFF MORE PROSPECTIVE FBSD USERS THAN ANYTHING ELSE - I know - I have heard! > >Besides, it is REALLY EASY to get lost in the FBSD installer "menu system", >and not that hard to get caught in a "control loop"; this is not to say that >the current FBSD installer is a piece of junk - I give kudos to its >developers, but IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON, and this is the ONE thing that gets >compared to with Linux "installers" as well as Winchoke, probably more than >anything else, so if FreeBSD is going to be more appealing to "the masses", >it needs a completely new installation process (note: I don't really care >for Solaris' "wizard process" - though it is not TOO bad, and I am not >trying to advocate a "wizard process" that mirrors others). > >I offer the following suggestions for cogitation and realize that some >of MY choices may not be "the best", but here goes anyhow: > >a) redesign the "installer" as a graphical menu system with pull-down > options, organized as a linear heirarchy where there is NO possibility > of getting lost or of winding up in a "control loop", and the progression > is clearly visible; real graphical images of major processes/steps and > "systems/major applications" should be provided; THIS installer should > begin with THREE, and only THREE options: "user workstation", > "server", or "(expert) choice of workstation/server setups" > > >b) design an "installation wizard", in line with contemporary systems, > that does nothing but install a "canned workstation environment" based on > OpenOffice plus Gnome (or KDE) - that's IT - NOTHING ELSE; Make sure > that a more modern graphical menu is used where sample images of Gnome > (or KDE) are presented, and do NOT install the entire Gnome (or KDE) > "suite"; THIS will appeal to the MILLIONS who have been brainwashed by > Redmond (or Apple?) into believing that there is only ONE "computing > environment" of any use or interest, AND IT WILL GIVE THEM WHAT THEY > WANT, even if it IS FreeBSD; this would be like a pseudo-Mac-X (whatever); > this will also appeal to those who don't really care about Unix or > FreeBSD as a "server", but really want a "desktop environment" > > a basic client-only, outbound-only-allowing firewall MUST BE > installed and activated (which will require some simple choices about > DHCP or assigned, static IP addreses); "ports" could be included as > an option, but would be better left to the "expert" wizard > > >c) design an "installation wizard" that installs a "server system with NO > desktop installation" which provides some "canned" server "types" (such as > "mail server", "web server", ...) that choose the newest versions of > server applications (such as Apache2 versus Apache1; PHP5 versus PHP4) > as the "defaults", and pull-down menus for changing versions (such as > one pull-down for PHP that lists all of the available PHP "main" > packages, and possibly another pull-down that lists all of the available > PHP "sub-packages"), or altering the application "mix" > > >d) design an "installation menu system" which provides ALL of the choices > for ALL of the available functions and services in a well ordered, > graphical, linear, hierarchy with sample images/snapshots and pull-down > menus to make choices easier to make, without having to go into and out > of many levels as the current installer does > > >It would probably help if a "special design team" (project) were created for >this, with calls to anyone/everyone to join in, unless - of course - that >there just so happens to be a group of talented people who WANT to do all of >this on their own ;) > > >If some truly talented and adventurous people were to look at the installation >process as an adventure in graphical layers where mousing over a box or image >would open up a new sub-layer (to the side, or even BETTER, to wherever the >user places their mouse or clicks on the background, or shouts at the monitor >(we REALLY need to get some of the Hitchhiker's Guide into this process!), >where small graphical images of options or related packages could be displayed >so that the "installer" acted like a well designed "flowing image overlay >system", THEN the FreeBSD installation process would be dynamite - literally! > >There are "circular menus" (ala one Firebird extension), layered pie-chart >diagrams of the filesystem with size information (such as KDE's "filelight") >where mousing over one of the concentric circles pops up an "info box", while >clicking on one of them traverses down the filesystem path and creates a new >set of concentric circles of lower level directories, and the exhilarating >3D-Desktop as examples of unique, "futuristic", artistic, free flowing >graphical "systems" that could lead to interesting ideas for the above >mentioned "graphical installation system". > > > Bah ... try Gentoo Linux sometime. You might say that Debian is in this same group as well. It is NOT lacking in fans. Besides, I can think of several situations where you wouldn't really want a GUI based installation, in particular, when building and configuring a server. A GUI based installation required the detection [perhaps accurate might be oder] of the video hardware, which in general just doesn't matter on a server. -- Thomas T. Veldhouse Key Fingerprint: 07C7 BF05 4176 F50B A083 4542 0118 1315 761F D300 Spammers please contact me at renegade@veldy.net.