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Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:24:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: T3e9ca0f36eb84e30 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 12:24:21 -0700 From: "Pat Maddox" To: "David Chisnall" , "Santiago Martinez" Cc: vermaden , "Sulev-Madis Silber" , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Message-Id: <54898afa-183b-4b39-9e4b-d44c461289c1@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5468c172-359f-4cdc-b142-7be1a5d70f16@app.fastmail.com> References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> <5468c172-359f-4cdc-b142-7be1a5d70f16@app.fastmail.com> Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.879]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[patmaddox.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[patmaddox.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27:c]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.145:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:AU]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[pat]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[interia.pl,ketas.si.pri.ee,freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[patmaddox.com:+,messagingengine.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzrSZ2Zp2z4FXH X-Spamd-Bar: --- On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, at 12:06 PM, Pat Maddox wrote: > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025, at 7:20 AM, David Chisnall wrote: >> Every upgrade flow I have on every FreeBSD machine I use is simplifie= d=20 >> by pkgbase. Having fewer tools is a usability win. Having a single=20 >> command upgrade everything is a usability win. If you *want to*=20 >> upgrade only some things, that=E2=80=99s one extra command-line flag. > > That's perfectly reasonable to me. > > I guess the core question is: why change the established policy of=20 > updating base and third-party separately, and require users to use a=20 > flag to retain it? Why not retain the policy, and require users to use=20 > a flag to update both separately? This should be: "why change the established policy of updating base and = third-party separately, and require users to use a flag to retain it? Wh= y not retain the policy, and require users to use a flag to update both = **together**?" > - Because it's so inherently superior to the old way that it should be=20 > the default, and people who want the old way just need to read UPDATIN= G=20 > to know the tweaks to make? > - Because doing so would make the semantics of `pkg` too confusing? So=20 > we accept the tradeoff of changing established upgrade policy, and=20 > again people need to be familiar with UPDATING? > - Other reasons? > > pkgbase seems like a fine mechanism for upgrading base. The issue at=20 > hand seems to be that the current approach changes the default freebsd=20 > upgrade policy in a significant way.