From nobody Sun Jun 26 18:18:49 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C81878095; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:19:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walterp@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-x22e.google.com (mail-oi1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4LWJys1sm1z4VWh; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:19:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walterp@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id r82so1518636oig.2; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:19:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2+kBeSUEtM6IrENb3gzq+EuBlsxYaUatQEQ0vqaRL0U=; b=O92mn9nOClA10n1nOsqLIAyKfAyQ5MVj0pAKLO7e5/TzO5p+76sB56r+laqWLav8u9 a9pTISxrdNL5CnaVOr5lsh7jsLCGa3GzQa6oJPEjipmD43RHSI5DGEOecZ9TcCzjokz+ BFqnYqmShg2zDinLeMC0soCmT3bzvukvczKqY+TfOGNLrCQ3zJ5hRjec9U6eYBoxAI9s gXQ2JCo5nfOnwqbpmlf/FGxLe1W4AarNKNLsXiSzLLKV5fvaWMbqAOrg8flipoZjZs81 n2qvnqnBqWVdFUNER8rWuv/Wojb6GatJljx3x0W253wjnsv8s2fmgPP6+xKMOUAl/a/S 7e2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2+kBeSUEtM6IrENb3gzq+EuBlsxYaUatQEQ0vqaRL0U=; b=kyUIQ/MlAAk7BvEeDaHgGdYpZp21zI/CTc9hnQqsk0NTFJssUxb1wP9pDMhuLqUzK0 CQpem/104BCky/sRA3ox+EbBHty0jJ+u4Hr10RM+EiNGO3Lwc4t+Txux7r4vAdJrNsbx b2CTywIhMmdhTNlvMWwVe7X/qwDatV2LnKuauzw5bcg8WCIDzjumrp2LBhrzzo/GQM91 ZwRVFvn+vcehB3wtzHQt22eGwzNch0isPbNNjNB35q3M+RjcqjMxzWN4E7zA5KFZeacJ q2cqeIi+VIBEDRLuYJJlgRwfH+peeklARPhQOVl2wDA1/DLlai5d+KOwx54XYcPbf1+r BPGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+h2TgVtXnqcHXjdoyrPqXYw1PwCekDjkVZVGhXZdQFtUUtWd5D +WNJwvkhUkqPNxim9lPRg4+VzxFYFASbh/djvsE4KsXYrU4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1uYbMLrVDVsOfr2KKDso7qSTP+2EJBdRBMXIQK+XMI3jbLqOTmtZji+b5M4Dz6yJvZ787LDyP+/7lsPDTXRWIE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3089:b0:32e:f7fd:627d with SMTP id bl9-20020a056808308900b0032ef7fd627dmr5745098oib.181.1656267540275; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:19:00 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <753A27F9-9CEA-4592-A44F-91164917358B@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <753A27F9-9CEA-4592-A44F-91164917358B@freebsd.org> From: Walter Parker Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:18:49 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc. To: Michael Gmelin Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064276005e25dd60f" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4LWJys1sm1z4VWh X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=O92mn9nO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of walterp@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=walterp@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20210112]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-doc,freebsd-questions,freebsd-current]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000064276005e25dd60f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it), what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D HTM= L. UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients and does not require HTML for support. Walter On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin wrote: > > > On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en= /books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc > > > FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754 > > > I'm glad that HTML is supported. > > > No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists. > Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's. > > Also, I want support for things such as PNG. > > > Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes, > but rightly tend to be administratively size limited. > > What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in > > the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all > > the messages? > > > There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat. > Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and > via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat. > > > we are dealing with real people working with the email > > clients available to them in 2022 > > > Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette > won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and disciplined= . > > > Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various > arguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave ver= y > specific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on > mobile devices where people don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects = of how > things are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still > be followed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if we > want to have communication happen on our mailing lists. > > My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to > follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically choose= s > the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer = to > use ASCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80= =98" to "'" > manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an > acceptable experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen. > > If your email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it= =E2=80=99s time to > fix your setup. > > -m > > p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists? > > --=20 The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandei= s --00000000000064276005e25dd60f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (= but ok when you do it), what about the original post? He was asking about H= TML. UTF-8 !=3D HTML. UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported b= y most email clients and does not require HTML for support.

<= /div>

Walter

On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael = Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org>= wrote:


On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com= > wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-d= oc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc=

FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: upda= tes and corrections
= https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754

I'm glad that HTML is supported.<= /span>

No, people should not be send= ing HTML emails to lists.
Consult history of email netiquet= tes to discover the many why's.

Also, I want support for things such as PNG.
=

Attachments are not necessarily against= such netiquettes,
but rightly tend to be administratively = size limited.

Wh= at is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in
the FreeBSD Mailinglist f= ooter that is already appended to all
the messages?

There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat= .
Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in qu= arterly, and
via the occaisional involuntary and accepted f= riendly cluebat.


we are dealing with real people working with the email
clients available to t= hem in 2022

Same arguments wa= s made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette
won validi= ty for good reasons and is still taught trained and disciplined.
=


--
The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by= men=C2=A0of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. =C2=A0 -- Justic= e Louis D.=C2=A0Brandeis
--00000000000064276005e25dd60f--