Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:32:41 -0600 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> Cc: Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org>, freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, FreeBSD questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>, FreeBSD Current <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc. Message-ID: <CANCZdfrCkOd5GTvFr4Cek-TDNp=PaQFgZV7k5RT7TFs56pW48w@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAD2Ti2-UpyXYnNYCVCh%2BcUs-Q70b47CMeiPSK6BgYhB_3C0cLQ@mail.gmail.com> <753A27F9-9CEA-4592-A44F-91164917358B@freebsd.org> <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com>
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--0000000000000599cd05e25e084f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 12:20 PM Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote: > So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do > it), what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D H= TML. > UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients > and does not require HTML for support. > Html is fine as well. Most modern mail platforms generate it for you, whether you want them too or not. Most of the advice in appendix c is dated and doesn't really match what people do on the lists. Phones and web based Gmail are to large a presence to ignore or have policies against. I stopped listening to complaints about how Gmail or my phone formatted posts 5 years ago... and I'm definitely an old school straggler... Warner > Walter > > On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote= : > >> >> >> On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> >> >> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/e= n/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc >> >> >> FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections >> >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754 >> >> >> I'm glad that HTML is supported. >> >> >> No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists. >> Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's. >> >> Also, I want support for things such as PNG. >> >> >> Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes, >> but rightly tend to be administratively size limited. >> >> What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in >> >> the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all >> >> the messages? >> >> >> There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat. >> Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and >> via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat. >> >> >> we are dealing with real people working with the email >> >> clients available to them in 2022 >> >> >> Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette >> won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and discipline= d. >> >> >> Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various >> arguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave ve= ry >> specific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on >> mobile devices where people don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects= of how >> things are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should stil= l >> be followed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if w= e >> want to have communication happen on our mailing lists. >> >> My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to >> follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically choos= es >> the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer= to >> use ASCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80= =98" to "'" >> manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an >> acceptable experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen. >> >> If your email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it= =E2=80=99s time to >> fix your setup. >> >> -m >> >> p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists? >> >> > > -- > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of > zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brand= eis > --0000000000000599cd05e25e084f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 12:20 PM Walter Parker <<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:walterp@gmail.com">walterp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>So, utf-8 is good, post= ing to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it), what about the origin= al post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D HTML. UTF is a character enco= ding format. It is supported by most email clients and does not require HTM= L for support.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></= div><div dir=3D"auto">Html is fine as well. Most modern mail platforms gene= rate it for you, whether you want them too or not. Most of the advice in ap= pendix c is dated and doesn't really match what people do on the lists.= Phones and web based Gmail are to large a presence to ignore or have polic= ies against. I stopped listening to complaints about how Gmail or my phone = formatted posts 5 years ago... and I'm definitely an old school straggl= er...</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Warner=C2=A0</div>= <div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b= lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px = #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Walter<br= ></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"= >On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <<a href=3D"mailto:gremb= o@freebsd.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">grembo@freebsd.org</a>&= gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0= px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"= ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <= <a href=3D"mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">= grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote typ= e=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><a hre= f=3D"https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content= /en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer= rer">https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content= /en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc</a></span><br></blockquote><block= quote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"= ><span>FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections</span><br></bl= ockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"https://bugs.freebsd.or= g/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">h= ttps://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754</a></span><br></b= lockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquo= te type=3D"cite"><span>I'm glad that HTML is supported.</span><br></blo= ckquote><span></span><br><span>No, people should not be sending HTML emails= to lists.</span><br><span>Consult history of email netiquettes to discover= the many why's.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><= span>Also, I want support for things such as PNG.</span><br></blockquote><s= pan></span><br><span>Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquett= es,</span><br><span>but rightly tend to be administratively size limited.</= span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>What is the possi= bility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in</span><br></blockquo= te><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is a= lready appended to all</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><sp= an>the messages?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>There is no = such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat.</span><br><sp= an>Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and</s= pan><br><span>via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat= .</span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><sp= an>we are dealing with real people working with the email</span><br></block= quote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>clients available to them in 2022</sp= an><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Same arguments was made in 1982 = 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette</span><br><span>won validity for good rea= sons and is still taught trained and disciplined.</span><br></div></blockqu= ote><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Trying to stop peo= ple from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various arguments from differ= ent people without context is bad style - I gave very specific examples, in= cluding the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile devices where peo= ple don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects of how things are sent and= I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be followed given th= e realities of today and where we need to relax if we want to have communic= ation happen on our mailing lists.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span st= yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">My answer here is an example of that - there is no= reasonable way to follow any line length limits on a phone and it also aut= omatically chooses the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even thoug= h I would prefer to use ASCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change eve= ry single "=E2=80=98" to "'" manually or disable th= e features that make typing on such a device an acceptable experience. Just= won=E2=80=99t happen.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b= r></span></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><span>If your email client and/= or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2=80=99s time to fix your s= etup.</span></font></div><div><br></div><div>-m</div><div><br></div><div>p.= s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists?</div><= div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div di= r=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border= -collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136,136,136)">The greatest dangers to liberty = lurk in insidious encroachment by men=C2=A0of zeal, well-meaning but withou= t understanding. =C2=A0 -- Justice Louis D.=C2=A0Brandeis</span></div></div= > </blockquote></div></div></div> --0000000000000599cd05e25e084f--
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