Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:01:21 -0700 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Mike Karels <mike@karels.net> Cc: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>, Current FreeBSD <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Message-ID: <CANCZdfoyy6S-pxfbhnoyf=Pcv93qiNbk983CYwKxgZ9F%2BY143A@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5A74E928-2F4A-4BD6-8B77-837B793055C3@karels.net> References: <F5D2BD92-5AC3-4B1E-8B47-A1F13D9FC677.ref@yahoo.com> <F5D2BD92-5AC3-4B1E-8B47-A1F13D9FC677@yahoo.com> <ffcb932b3835dc9e3ccdd480abbab6fe@Leidinger.net> <20240111175430.e8070ef9415a092ac1a03a1c@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <233b0bd9-3867-479b-a265-21bf5df0f6ff@quip.cz> <5A74E928-2F4A-4BD6-8B77-837B793055C3@karels.net>
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--000000000000be8c39060eb2b0c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 6:59=E2=80=AFAM Mike Karels <mike@karels.net> wrote= : > On 11 Jan 2024, at 7:30, Miroslav Lachman wrote: > > > On 11/01/2024 09:54, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > >> On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 08:36:24 +0100 > >> Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@Leidinger.net> wrote: > > > > [..] > > > >>> There's one possibility which nobody talked about yet... changing the > >>> default to noatime at install time in fstab / zfs set. > >>> > >>> I fully agree to not violate POLA by changing the default to noatime = in > >>> any FS. I always set noatime everywhere on systems I take care about, > no > >>> exceptions (any user visible mail is handled via maildir/IMAP, not > >>> mbox). I haven't made up my mind if it would be a good idea to change > >>> bsdinstall to set noatime (after asking the user about it, and later > >>> maybe offer the possibility to use relatime in case it gets > >>> implemented). I think it is at least worthwile to discuss this > >>> possibility (including what the default setting of bsdinstall should = be > >>> for this option). > > > > [..] > > > >> A different aspect of view. > >> Nowadays, storages are quickly moving from HDD, aka spinning rust, to > >> SSD. > >> And SSD has a risk of sudden-death of wearing out. In ancient days, HD= D > >> dies not suddenly and at least some cases admins could have time to > >> replace suspicious drives. But SSD dies basically suddenly. > >> > >> IMHO, this could be a valid reason to violate POLA. In limited use > >> cases, atime is useful, at the cost of amplified write accesses. > >> But in most cases, it doesn't have positive functionality nowadays. > >> > >> Anyway, we should have time to discuss whether it should be done or no= t > >> until upcoming stable/15 branch. stable/14 is already here and it > >> wouldn't be a good thing to MFC. Only *.0-RELEASE should be the point > >> to introduce this, unlike discussion about vi and ee on forums. > > > > The default values change over time as the needs of people, programs an= d > hardware change. Many values for sysctls changed over time. > > If "noatime" can help people to not trash SSD / SD storage, I can > imagine that bsdinstall will detect the storage type (simple guess can be > made by diskinfo -v) and offer a "noatime" option that the user can > check/uncheck. This option can be pre-selected for flash based storage. > > I don't care defaults for my-self, I can change them, but sane defaults > should be beneficial for new users without much background knowledge. > > > > Kind regards > > Miroslav Lachman > > I like the idea of an option in bsdinstall, but I don't think it is > necessary > to check the storage type. It could simply default to noatime. > > I think we should automatically use noatime on SD card images (where > bsdinstall > doesn't get used). > > Separately, I think a relatime option would be a good compromise, and I > would > probably use it. > I think these are sensible steps. We already do something similar for ZFS. Warner --000000000000be8c39060eb2b0c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 6:59=E2=80=AF= AM Mike Karels <<a href=3D"mailto:mike@karels.net">mike@karels.net</a>&g= t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p= x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 11 = Jan 2024, at 7:30, Miroslav Lachman wrote:<br> <br> > On 11/01/2024 09:54, Tomoaki AOKI wrote:<br> >> On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 08:36:24 +0100<br> >> Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@Leidinger.net> wrote:<br> ><br> > [..]<br> ><br> >>> There's one possibility which nobody talked about yet... c= hanging the<br> >>> default to noatime at install time in fstab / zfs set.<br> >>><br> >>> I fully agree to not violate POLA by changing the default to n= oatime in<br> >>> any FS. I always set noatime everywhere on systems I take care= about, no<br> >>> exceptions (any user visible mail is handled via maildir/IMAP,= not<br> >>> mbox). I haven't made up my mind if it would be a good ide= a to change<br> >>> bsdinstall to set noatime (after asking the user about it, and= later<br> >>> maybe offer=C2=A0 the possibility to use relatime in case it g= ets<br> >>> implemented). I think it is at least worthwile to discuss this= <br> >>> possibility (including what the default setting of bsdinstall = should be<br> >>> for this option).<br> ><br> > [..]<br> ><br> >> A different aspect of view.<br> >> Nowadays, storages are quickly moving from HDD, aka spinning rust,= to<br> >> SSD.<br> >> And SSD has a risk of sudden-death of wearing out. In ancient days= , HDD<br> >> dies not suddenly and at least some cases admins could have time t= o<br> >> replace suspicious drives. But SSD dies basically suddenly.<br> >><br> >> IMHO, this could be a valid reason to violate POLA. In limited use= <br> >> cases, atime is useful, at the cost of amplified write accesses.<b= r> >> But in most cases, it doesn't have positive functionality nowa= days.<br> >><br> >> Anyway, we should have time to discuss whether it should be done o= r not<br> >> until upcoming stable/15 branch. stable/14 is already here and it<= br> >> wouldn't be a good thing to MFC. Only *.0-RELEASE should be th= e point<br> >> to introduce this, unlike discussion about vi and ee on forums.<br= > ><br> > The default values change over time as the needs of people, programs a= nd hardware change. Many values for sysctls changed over time.<br> > If "noatime" can help people to not trash SSD / SD storage, = I can imagine that bsdinstall will detect the storage type (simple guess ca= n be made by diskinfo -v) and offer a "noatime" option that the u= ser can check/uncheck. This option can be pre-selected for flash based stor= age.<br> > I don't care defaults for my-self, I can change them, but sane def= aults should be beneficial for new users without much background knowledge.= <br> ><br> > Kind regards<br> > Miroslav Lachman<br> <br> I like the idea of an option in bsdinstall, but I don't think it is nec= essary<br> to check the storage type.=C2=A0 It could simply default to noatime.<br> <br> I think we should automatically use noatime on SD card images (where bsdins= tall<br> doesn't get used).<br> <br> Separately, I think a relatime option would be a good compromise, and I wou= ld<br> probably use it.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think these are sens= ible steps. We already do something similar for ZFS.</div><div><br></div><d= iv>Warner=C2=A0</div></div></div> --000000000000be8c39060eb2b0c2--
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