Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:47:15 +1000 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: "Michael P. Sale" <mike@merchantsnet.com> Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD Message-ID: <19980617174714.48555@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <01bd99b8$82af4a40$5306bccc@708644668>; from Michael P. Sale on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:23:58PM -0700 References: <01bd99b8$82af4a40$5306bccc@708644668>
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On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:23:58PM -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote:
> Well, into the fray.
>
> >Err, but this one is specifically *not* a "tech support" group.
> >There was a suggestion to start a support group for newbies, in addition
> >to this social discussion group, but so far we have not found enough
> >volunteer supporters of sufficient calibre and commitment to maintain it.
>
> This is a bad thing, as it would be nice if the support was there for such a
> group. I'm not sure why it's hard to get support for it though. The
> questions need to and do get answered somewhere. Why is it not possible for
> the same people that answer questions in questions to watch a
> "newbies-questions" list?
Why would they want to watch two lists when they believe they are doing
an adequate job in the one that exists. They won't be paid overtime. And
for that matter, why should we have to look in two places for answers.
There is no clear distinction between newbies level questions and more
difficult questions, so we'd be looking all over.
Personally, I'd love to have a newbies questions list where I could
answer questions as soon as I read the man page, but I can't see how it
could happen without a lot of careful planning and a huge amount of input
from non-newbies.
> >Take another look at the charter. Why is it that newbies find it so easy
> >to understand where to draw the line and non-newbies, who have other
> >places to go, keep telling us that our group should be what it's not?
>
> Because newbies get berrated by you when they do step over that line. The
> non-newbies are not as worried about needing help later on if they piss
> someone with some knowledge off.
>
> No, you cannot get out of that one with false modesty Sue. :-)
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. When newbies ask a
question thinking this is the right place, I explain that it's -questions
they want. When they do it a second time I get persistent. When
non-newbies horn in I tell them to piss off. I have invited others to
shepherd people to questions if they seem to misunderstand, and that is
posted here every week.
> >Our list is what it is. Maybe one day that will change, but not in a big
> >hurry, and any change will be brought about by what newbies want, not
> >what we're told to want. There are thirty other lists where we're happy
> >to be told what we want every day. We go there when we want help. This
> >one is ours, to be among peers, to do things, not have things done to us.
>
> Yes, this is a great list for what it is, but untill recently was not a very
> heavily posted to list. I'm not sure how you define sucess?
I'm not too worried about success. When the advocacy group started this
one dried up, not that it was huge before, but there was a definite drift
to -advocacy since that's what we'd been talking about a lot here.
If people want to use this list they will. If they don't it'll fade into
a corner and die some time. I'm not into measuring. What I do regard as
successful is the things we've achieved through meeting each other here,
rather than rating the list itself. It has given some of us a chance to
be active and to see other newbies being active, instead of always passive.
Not everyone regards that as an achievement. Hell, I regard remembering
how to use chmod a big acheivement, but you don't have to :-)
> >OK, that's not what _you_ are proposing, but careful, it's the idea that
> >it could generate. Read the five documents listed above one more time.
> >The list charter is the bottom line. It's quite simple to understand, if
> >you can accept the list for what it is and newbies for what they are. We
> >newbies come here to share and contribute with each other. We discuss
> >FreeBSD because we're interested in it. Others can discuss with us and if
> >they know a bit more, that's great. But it's not the same as support, nor
> >do we have the FreeBSD support team waiting here to correct errors.
>
> I could not agree more. The list charters should be followed. It does not
> however mean that newbies are not allowed to feel that there should also be
> a place that has that same sense of belonging and security where they CAN
> ask questions.
Fine. Create one.
> I suspect that if this list turned into a place where only newbies answered
> easy questions with bad anwers, people would learn soon enough to stop
> asking questions here. It's pretty simple really.
They wouldn't get a chance. The place would be full of ex-newbies
answering easy questions with bad answers and intimidating the newbies
who'd otherwise have a go :-)
And some people in -questions and elsewhere would go back to spreading
the belief that every newbie is a braindead sloth who wants personal
hand-holding and just makes more work for everyone else by spreading
misinformation, a liability who doesn't deserve any consideration because
they'll never be bothered to help themselves. Go right ahead, prove it :-)
> >My view is just the view of one newbie (on a bad day). There are a lot of
> >other newbies here who might have different views, and that's a good
> >thing. Personally, in this particular forum I would respect the view of a
> >newbie more than the voice of experience. Newbies generally don't express
> >their views as convincingly and confidently as those with more
> >experience, even when it's their own business. I wish that they would.
>
> Be careful what you wish for.
I am always careful what I wish for. Wishes are what keep us trying.
Today I am very trying.
> >Remember there's only three sources of authority in here. One is the list
> >charter, one is the postmaster who we seldom hear from, and the third is
> >the combined voices of the newbies. I think it's about time you other
> >newbies felt free to use your authority instead of giving it away by
> >remaining silent.
>
> Does this mean you are not the "moderator" anymore? I seem to recall you
> exerting some authority as the moderator at one time.
I thought I cleared that up ages ago. This list is unmoderated, but it is
facilitated to some extent because there are things that newbies need to
be advised on that are not support, like who does the web pages or how
come there's a mailing list for hacking. In other forums the term
moderator is used with a different meaning and one day I picked the wrong
word. I just happen to know more than most newbies about email, I've been
around a while, and I don't mind a bit of dirty work. Stick your neck out
among newbies and you get a stream of personal email because they don't
know how to use group-reply yet or think they're the only person in the
world in their situation and they'll be laughed at. Call that job what
you will.
As for authority, whatever authority I may or may not be believed to have
is irrelevant. I will use everything I can grab to put non-newbies in
their place when their behaviour threatens to usurp the authority of the
newbie members of this list. If that makes me a bitch I don't care. We've
got no other place to call our own. If newbies get caught in the cross
fire maybe that'll give them the impetus to stand up for themselves here,
and eventually hold their own as equal members of the community in other
groups, regardless of their current technical experience. If we don't
have confidence in ourselves and each other as newbies, who the hell will.
> I don't know if I have authority now, but I sure don't feel silent. :-)
Anyone can come in here, or anywhere else, and puff out their chest. If
they are believed and followed they'll get away with it, at least until
someone else turns up with tastier treats for the adoring crowd. There is
no real authority anywhere. You get to play at authority by assuming it.
The more naive people around the easier it is to get away with. Take it
too far and someone will push you out from below. In other lists everyone
has enough self-confidence to simply ignore any such attempts. Not here.
But for respect, you need to actually do something that others
appreciate.
These roads are all open to everyone, newbies included. It's just that
newbies too often assume that real authority exists and that it is the
people in authority who take all responsibility for providing services.
FreeBSD has no such structure. If you want something you do it yourself
and then share it with your peers. That's all there is, and we made a
whole community out of it. Newbies are just starting to find a warm place
in that community, because of what they can do, not because of what they
can take. I don't like always being defined in terms of what others have
to do for me, and I suspect other newbies feel the same. Here we can be
workers and givers too, so long as we never become passive wimps by
relinquishing the authority and responsibility we have over ourselves.
--
Regards,
-*Sue*-
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