Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:08:11 -0600 From: Chip Morton <tech_info@threespace.com> To: FreeBSD Chat <chat@freebsd.org> Subject: The Great GUI Debate (was Re: Free BSD) Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com> In-Reply-To: <15507.31402.448552.648331@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com>
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At 11:02 AM 3/16/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: >Leaving the steaming heap that Apple/MS has foisted off on us as an >interface is the worst idea I've seen since the last time I talked to >an MS support rep (~1982). > >Of all the behavior models for windowing systems that I know of, >that's the least efficient one. Look, if you or Lambert or Raskin or anybody else think that you have a better idea, then have at it. If you build a mousetrap that is truly better than the one we use now, then I'm sure the world will quickly beat a path to your doorstep. >Most major manufacturers put an acceleration control on the steering >wheel, at least for their high end cars. I'm pretty sure one of the F1 >teams did the same. I can't afford high-end cars, and neither can most folks. But I don't believe it's not done because it's a "high-end" concept; I believe it's not done because the benefits are outweighed by other negative factors, notably the "re-learning curve." >"Shoved down our throats"? You mean, like DVDs are being shoved down >our throats, and like DIVX was shoved down our throats? > >I don't know about you, but the first time I heard a CD player, *I* >wanted one. I waited until I found one that could pass a blind A/B >test against a thousand dollar turntable before I got rid of my >turntable, but nobody forced people to buy CDs instead of cassettes. > >The rule for this stuff is very simple: to get the public to change, >it has to be perceived to be at least an order of magnitude better for >the same price. > >CDs pretty clearly qualified: they sounded better(*), they were more >damage resistant, and they could be played in the car. > >DVDs, ditto. They look better(*), they are wear better, and they offer >lots extra features that people seem to like. > >DIVX, not ditto. It was DVD, only with a sucky pricing structure and >requiring a new player. Well, real-time recording onto CDs and DVDs is still a dream here in America, so for my use, CDs/DVDs aren't so clearly better than casettes and VHS videotapes. And this denies that there have been other comparable form factors that the industry didn't push as eagerly--MDs, DATs, and laserdiscs come to mind quickly. I think the issue for the music industry is less about the quality of our listening experience than about content control. >Unfortunately, while the steaming heap of a GUI most people use is >indeed the least efficient, it's at worst a factor of two worse, not a >factor of 10. So the only way it's going to get changed is if MS >manages to shove it down our throats. Having monopoly power, they can >do that. And I think this is the crucial point here. Raskin's ideas may be better, but are they so much better that the masses will be willing to switch? I don't think so. Even if I spend a whole hour per day doing window operations, my savings is three minutes per day. But now I hate using my computer. So where's the gain? And how much time did I waste trying to learn this new, improved way of doing things. > > The actual look of a window manager (or car, or woman, or anything else) > > only matters very early up front. You may be wowed by the look of the > > windows and widgets early on, but after that it really doesn't matter to > > you while you're working. > >Actually, it does matter. If you notice them, then you're not >working. That's why the look matters. Being wow'ed early on is usually >a bad sign, not a good one. Again I disagree. Over a long period of time, people will get used to whatever shiny baubles they were impressed with early on. My candy-colored scrollbars don't make me any more/less efficient than if I had a simple two-color scrollbar. I don't pay them any attention any more until I have to scroll something. And if you're NOT using the system for a long time, then the efficiency gained from changing things isn't worth the time it would take to relearn them. > > Sure, I don't like the look of twm, but I would > > be no more/less productive by using it. > >That depends on what you're using now. If it's the MS/Apple stuff, >then using a properly configured twm would be about 5% more efficient >- meaning it takes about 5% less time to do things with it than the >MS/Apple stuff. That should translate into more productivity. > > > > In fact, I might argue that the pleasure I get out of having an > > attractive, colorful windowing system with my girlfriend on the > > wallpaper would actually make me more productive on the whole. > > Productivity isn't just about the milliseconds saved in dragging the > > mouse from one corner to the next. > >True enough. But since you can do that with almost any GUI, it's sort >of irrelevant. It's not irrelevant because you and Raskin just argued that these sort of amenities detract from my productivity. The problem I see with this argument is that it tries to measure human productivity in machine cycles. My saving five minutes per day in improved productivity may be pointless if I hate using my ugly window manager. The benefits here are not without a cost. > > Like I said, he can develop his 1-bit WM and then he can have it. > >He already did, and he already does. Then he should be happy and stay off happy users' screens. > <mike > >*) I know the sound/looks point is arguable, but compare them on the >kinds of A/V system your average consumer has, *not* the kind that >someone who'd lay out a grand for a turntable has. Under those >conditions, CD/DVD clearly has better quality. > >-- >Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ >Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. 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