Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:04:11 -0400 (EDT) From: James <dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org> To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> Cc: "Michael P. Sale" <mike@merchantsnet.com>, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980617184246.2363F-100000@localhost> In-Reply-To: <19980617174714.48555@welearn.com.au>
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:23:58PM -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: > > Well, into the fray. > > > > >Err, but this one is specifically *not* a "tech support" group. > > >There was a suggestion to start a support group for newbies, in addition > > >to this social discussion group, but so far we have not found enough > > >volunteer supporters of sufficient calibre and commitment to maintain it. > > > > This is a bad thing, as it would be nice if the support was there for such a > > group. I'm not sure why it's hard to get support for it though. The > > questions need to and do get answered somewhere. Why is it not possible for > > the same people that answer questions in questions to watch a > > "newbies-questions" list? > > Why would they want to watch two lists when they believe they are doing > an adequate job in the one that exists. They won't be paid overtime. And > for that matter, why should we have to look in two places for answers. > There is no clear distinction between newbies level questions and more > difficult questions, so we'd be looking all over. > I also recall a discussion that there is already a confusing line beteween questions that should be give in -questions and -hackers. Some of the more advanced questions that should be posted in -hackers are bing placed in -questions. The thought was that a -newbies-questions would further the mess. I believe that this is a valid point. General questions getting placed in one list is a good point, then more advanced questions or more subsystem specific questions are delegated out to the others like -hackers -current, -stable, -multimedia etc... I personally think that this is a good model. This group and -chat from my view are meant to be basically the same only this one has a newbie "flavor" to it where -chat is more toward the person that has been following the community for a while. That is my viewpoint and if I am wrong redirect me to the charter. > Personally, I'd love to have a newbies questions list where I could > answer questions as soon as I read the man page, but I can't see how it > could happen without a lot of careful planning and a huge amount of input > from non-newbies. > > > >Take another look at the charter. Why is it that newbies find it so easy > > >to understand where to draw the line and non-newbies, who have other > > >places to go, keep telling us that our group should be what it's not? > > > > Because newbies get berrated by you when they do step over that line. The > > non-newbies are not as worried about needing help later on if they piss > > someone with some knowledge off. > > > > No, you cannot get out of that one with false modesty Sue. :-) > > I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. When newbies ask a > question thinking this is the right place, I explain that it's -questions > they want. When they do it a second time I get persistent. When > non-newbies horn in I tell them to piss off. I have invited others to > shepherd people to questions if they seem to misunderstand, and that is > posted here every week. Who tells them they should listen to being told to piss off? > > >Our list is what it is. Maybe one day that will change, but not in a big > > >hurry, and any change will be brought about by what newbies want, not > > >what we're told to want. There are thirty other lists where we're happy > > >to be told what we want every day. We go there when we want help. This > > >one is ours, to be among peers, to do things, not have things done to us. > > > > Yes, this is a great list for what it is, but untill recently was not a very > > heavily posted to list. I'm not sure how you define sucess? > > I'm not too worried about success. When the advocacy group started this > one dried up, not that it was huge before, but there was a definite drift > to -advocacy since that's what we'd been talking about a lot here. > > If people want to use this list they will. If they don't it'll fade into > a corner and die some time. I'm not into measuring. What I do regard as > successful is the things we've achieved through meeting each other here, > rather than rating the list itself. It has given some of us a chance to > be active and to see other newbies being active, instead of always passive. > Not everyone regards that as an achievement. Hell, I regard remembering > how to use chmod a big acheivement, but you don't have to :-) Personally, my biggest newbie achievement was when I got my soundcard and MP3 player to work. : ) > > >OK, that's not what _you_ are proposing, but careful, it's the idea that > > >it could generate. Read the five documents listed above one more time. > > >The list charter is the bottom line. It's quite simple to understand, if > > >you can accept the list for what it is and newbies for what they are. We > > >newbies come here to share and contribute with each other. We discuss > > >FreeBSD because we're interested in it. Others can discuss with us and if > > >they know a bit more, that's great. But it's not the same as support, nor > > >do we have the FreeBSD support team waiting here to correct errors. > > > > I could not agree more. The list charters should be followed. It does not > > however mean that newbies are not allowed to feel that there should also be > > a place that has that same sense of belonging and security where they CAN > > ask questions. > > Fine. Create one. > > > I suspect that if this list turned into a place where only newbies answered > > easy questions with bad anwers, people would learn soon enough to stop > > asking questions here. It's pretty simple really. > > They wouldn't get a chance. The place would be full of ex-newbies > answering easy questions with bad answers and intimidating the newbies > who'd otherwise have a go :-) > > And some people in -questions and elsewhere would go back to spreading > the belief that every newbie is a braindead sloth who wants personal > hand-holding and just makes more work for everyone else by spreading > misinformation, a liability who doesn't deserve any consideration because > they'll never be bothered to help themselves. Go right ahead, prove it :-) I never got the impression that newbies are viewed as braindead sloths who want handholding. You also must admit that there ARE those that will never bother to help themselves. They just install UNIX to be cool and to say that they did. They are not seeking to gain anything from it. > > >Remember there's only three sources of authority in here. One is the list > > >charter, one is the postmaster who we seldom hear from, and the third is > > >the combined voices of the newbies. I think it's about time you other > > >newbies felt free to use your authority instead of giving it away by > > >remaining silent. > > > > Does this mean you are not the "moderator" anymore? I seem to recall you > > exerting some authority as the moderator at one time. > > I thought I cleared that up ages ago. This list is unmoderated, but it is > facilitated to some extent because there are things that newbies need to > be advised on that are not support, like who does the web pages or how > come there's a mailing list for hacking. In other forums the term > moderator is used with a different meaning and one day I picked the wrong > word. I just happen to know more than most newbies about email, I've been > around a while, and I don't mind a bit of dirty work. Stick your neck out > among newbies and you get a stream of personal email because they don't > know how to use group-reply yet or think they're the only person in the > world in their situation and they'll be laughed at. Call that job what > you will. > > As for authority, whatever authority I may or may not be believed to have > is irrelevant. I will use everything I can grab to put non-newbies in > their place when their behaviour threatens to usurp the authority of the > newbie members of this list. If that makes me a bitch I don't care. We've > got no other place to call our own. If newbies get caught in the cross > fire maybe that'll give them the impetus to stand up for themselves here, > and eventually hold their own as equal members of the community in other > groups, regardless of their current technical experience. If we don't > have confidence in ourselves and each other as newbies, who the hell will. Why is it you consistently address non-newbies as if they are evil. Like it or not Sue, I would classify you, based on how I have seen you demonstrate you knowledge in the lists, as more of a non newbie. Given, I am not a large poster myself, I DO read the lists. : ) /* Other comments snipped */ James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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