Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:33:33 -0600 From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl> Cc: Foxfair Hu <foxfair@drago.cert.org.tw>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990831153723.00a39c60@localhost> In-Reply-To: <19990831220632.B58178@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost>
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At 10:06 PM 8/31/99 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >[People easily offended by strong words, go read another message] > >* Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) [990831 18:33]: > > >What I'm concerned about, though, is that the developers might literally try > >to sabotage such an effort. In that case, it'd be necessary to do a fork > >(which I'd hate to do; it entails much wasted and duplicated work) or to go > >with one of the other BSDs (perhaps OpenBSD). So, I'm in somewhat of a > >quandary here. Would Jordan Hubbard, in a million years, even accept the existence > >of an effort that would actively market and evangelize BSD UNIX? Would Walnut > >Creek try to take FreeBSD private if such an effort became too successful? > >For blood's sake Brett, > >are you bloddy paranoid or something? No, just realistic. Jordan has said before, to me personally, that he'll see Linux-style evangelism for FreeBSD "over [his] dead body." I don't think I'm being paranoid if I take Jordan at his word -- figuratively, if not literally. >Every mail you sent nowadays always mentions Jordan as the big bad wolf >and with you being the humble sheep that only wants to do this or that. I don't think that the above is a fair assessment. I *do* fault Jordan for FreeBSD's failures in the areas of advocacy, marketing, and PR, and I think that this is justified since he is the leader of the project and has been quite outspoken in his opposition to effective tactics in this area. But " big bad wolf?" No. >In the beginning of my mailinglist forays I had respect for you due to >your analysis of the GPL and all that related. However you wasted all >your respect by now. I'm sorry that you feel that way. I personally have done my best to be consistent, upfront, ethical, and forthcoming with my views, and to stick to this approach even in the face of opposition or attempts to quash dissent. I would hope that this would ENGENDER respect, but of course, everyone uses different criteria to determine what they will respect and what they will not. One cannot satisfy everyone, so I simply seek to exhibit qualities that I personally find worthy of respect. >By now I think you and your rabit behaviour actually matches Theo's >zealotry and I would sincerely suggest to relocate your efforts to >OpenBSD as you already hinted at in the above. I haven't been "rabid" by any means, nor have I exhibited many of the traits that cause Theo to grate on others. (One trait I *have* exhibited is stubbornness, but then, Jordan and you yourself do too.) >Also, for all your `preaching' and `evanglism' you even consider >forking yet another BSD? Then I see you have learned as little as you >continuously chose to criticise Jordan for. I said -- if you'll reread my message -- that if I made a serious investment in a distribution of FreeBSD I would have no CHOICE but to fork it if Jordan and/or Walnut Creek acted, in some way, to harm that effort. As I mentioned there, I consider forking to be wasteful and unnecessary. But I do recognize that Jordan is an employee of Walnut Creek. That means that, legally, Walnut Creek could begin to claim ownership of any contribution he made to the project on company time. (I would hope that this would never happen, but if one is making a substantial investment one must always consider such a risk and disclose it to investors.) Walnut Creek would have a financial incentive to do this if it decided to cut out CheapBytes and/or other companies that might publish distributions of FreeBSD. US law is very clear on the fact that this is possible. >The developers welcome advocacy, in fact, some of us do it through >development in ways you probably can't understand Development is not advocacy. It may foster or facilitate advocacy, and advocacy, in turn, may help development by aiding the recruitment of good developers. Nonetheless, they are two very different activities. I understand very well how the two interact. >since you appear too >focused on your own little private agenda. I am not focused on any specific agenda. What I offer, in fact, is a "big picture" view from the outside -- one that might not be available to some who are too close to the project to get this perspective. >Also, in all my encounters with Jordan I am starting to see his points >more and more and I admit sometimes wonder at certain things he does, >but after all, Jordan is not god, or Mr. BSD, or whatever, he's only >human and IMNSHO entitled to make mistakes. Agreed. However, he is widely regarded as "Mr. FreeBSD" and/or as a demigod (or maybe a hemidemisemigod?) by many. Certainly, there are some who accept his opinion less critically than they should, or because they fear that dissent will cause problems. (I personally think that controversy is healthy.) >Can you finally accept stuff like this and start to actually do >SOMETHING? I actually have been doing quite a lot. Some of what I've been up to cannot be made public due to client confidentiality, etc. But even so, the things that ARE public -- the large installations of BSD UNIX (not all are FreeBSD, but most are), the magazine articles, etc. -- have made a big difference. I daresay that I'm frequently responsible when BSD UNIX is mentioned in articles which spotlight Linux. Before I go much further with bigger plans, however, I need assurances that I will be able to pursue the release of a heavily evangelized distribution without direct opposition from key players. It's OK if they wouldn't do what I do THEMSELVES. However, I don't want to wind up in an emergency situation where my project would be forced to fork, or suddenly switch to another BSD-derived system such as NetBSD or OpenBSD, to continue. Right now, I see a real risk of that, for two reasons: First, Jordan is currently an employee of Walnut Creek, which may see a financial interest in precluding the development of other distributions. I'd want assuranced from Jordan and RAB that this would not happen. Second, Jordan and some other key players have vocally opposed the sort of active evangelism which, memetically, is necessary for FreeBSD to compete against Linux in the software ecosystem. (Right now, BSD's niche in that ecosystem is being eroded.) >We have a saying here in Rotterdam which translates to "No words, but >deeds." You sir, should probably never relocate to Rotterdam. Actually, I found it to be a nice place during my brief visit. But, as stated above, my deeds speak for themselves. Now, it could be that, to you, nothing but committed code counts as "deeds," but I hope not. Such a view would be very shortsighted -- right now, evangelism and promotion matter much more. In fact, without them, the current shortage of developers to fix known problems (recently cited by Matt Dillon and others in other threads here) may worsen, as more and more find that Linux offers them a better return on their investments of time and effort. >Enjoy your ongoing BSD life. I hope I will not be a part of it in >whatever idea you want to give to these words. You don't have to be a part of it, though you may change your mind once you see the results. What I ask is that my efforts not be actively opposed by you or by The Powers That Be, such as they are. Call my ideas silly or Quixotic if you will; that's fine. (As I've said above, I have no problem with controversy.) But I need to know that I can pursue this project without a risk of problems due to "friendly fire," as it were. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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