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Date:      Sun, 01 Sep 2002 21:21:29 -0700
From:      Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
To:        Dave Hayes <dave@jetcafe.org>
Cc:        "Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Why did evolution fail?
Message-ID:  <3D72E749.B309BC63@mindspring.com>
References:  <200209011821.g81ILo144411@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org>

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Dave Hayes wrote:
> >> > How can individuals cooperate to achieve common goals, if everyone
> >> > acts as you would have them act?  By what system?
> >>
> >> Eh? Why does this position imply that individuals cannot cooperate?
> >> How can individuals cooperate at all if they do not focus on what they
> >> do as a first priority?
> >
> > It doesn't imply they can't, it implies they won't.
> 
> It implies no such thing either way. You can be focused, for example,
> on what you are doing for another.

See my references.  Do the math.  The game you are describing has
only one set of paredo-optimal results.


> Again, I'm not implying that. I'm saying you should be worried about
> your own progress and your own issues first. If you are focused on
> how "you can get something from this other", that's not the focus I am
> talking about.

What else am I to conclude from a selfish focus on one's self,
with no worry about what others do?  I can, for example, focus
on feeding myself, while others starve.


> >> Measuring the greatest good is not done using any continuous
> >> increasing space of quantative measure. It's not even mathematical.
> >
> > You mean "I don't know the math which would enable me to model
> > that correctly".  8-).
> 
> I don't think there IS any math that would enable you to model that
> correctly. You don't even have a solid context to apply any measuring
> semantics.

Sure I do.  The avearge perception of "good".  Any given society
can vote on its meaning, and take the consensus decision as being
normative.


> >> You just can't "measure" or "know" this or usefully map it to any
> >> remotely rational or linear process. Approximations, in fact, may do
> >> more harm than good.
> > Definition (NIST : http://www.nist.gov/dads/HTML/monteCarlo.html )
> >       Monte Carlo Algorithim - A randomized algorithm that
> >       may produce incorrect results, but with bounded error
> >       probability.
> 
> What good is this for measuring "good"?

We already know how to measure good: it's 100 minus the precentage
deviation from the consensus.  What we're interested in now is in
arriving at a maximization function.


> > Respectfully: a tool may only do "more harm than good" if it is
> > used by someone who does not know how to use it correctly.
> 
> By the same boat, attemping to act on unknowable data about what
> is the "highest and best good" may do "more harm than good" if someone
> does not know how to approach this correctly.

Your insistance on "unknowability" is bizarre.


> It always was your duty to find the best yardstick by which to measure
> 'highest and best good'.

See above.


> >> > In order for a system top operate indefinitely, it must achieve
> >> > homeostasis.
> >>
> >> IYHO. ;)
> >
> > Definitionally.
> 
> Your definition. ;)

A definition I accept; I don't claim to have originated it.

-- Terry

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