Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:17:39 -0400 From: Mikhail Teterin <mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> To: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>, Mikhail Teterin <mi+kde@aldan.algebra.com> Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev <sobomax@FreeBSD.ORG>, anholt@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: recap (Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u) Message-ID: <200209051417.39255.mi%2Bmx@aldan.algebra.com> In-Reply-To: <20020905043838.GA38406@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209050018.15176@aldan> <20020905043838.GA38406@nagual.pp.ru>
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There are two issues here, which get mixed up and are thus hard to
follow:
1) ${X11BASE}/lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic is populated by
Russian fonts, which lack several characters not found in
Russian alphabet, but used in other languages (Macedonian,
Ukrainian, etc.).
The proposed solution is to replace those koi8-r fonts in
there with the koi8-u or koi8-c fonts. This solution will
not deviate from any standard, but might confuse some users
(and applications), who, in their ignorance, only know about
the koi8-r
2) Since the characters replaced in koi8-r by the koi8-u and
koi8-c are rarely if ever used, the confusion may be aleviated
by (optionally and/or by default) installing fonts.aliases file
in the lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic directory, which will map the
koi8-u or koi8-c fonts to koi8-r (something x11-fonts/geminifonts
is already doing)
This will provide for smoother transition, but is fiercely
opposed by Andrey here on the grounds, that the new fonts.aliases
will call "koi8-r" something, that is not quite "koi8-r", no
matter how miniscule the difference is. I'm proposing we
ignore this particular opposition, because what's currently
being installed into lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic by the stock
XFree86 is not koi8-r either, so installing those aliases
will not break anything, that is not already broken.
Andrey suggests, the new (supposedly -- corrected) koi8-r fonts be
installed there in addition to koi8-u and/or koi8-c. Although, this will
be the most standard compliant, I find it wasteful of the diskspace and
X-server memory, because:
a) No existing application relies on the few pseudographics
replaced in the koi8-r by the new koi8-c and koi8-u with more
Cyrillic (but not Russian) letters.
Andrey finally named Russian FIDO conferences as a counterexample,
but even those require the updated koi8-r fonts -- the ones, that
are a part of XFree86 at the moment will not work anyway.
b) New applications should be encouraged to use the more complete
charsets such as koi8-u or koi8-c instead
c) The true-to-the-letter koi8-r and/or koi8-u fonts can be
installed by those few, who actually need them from the optional
ports (russian/X.language, x11-fonts/geminifonts).
I would like to propose, that the fontsCyrillic port be modified (once
again) to always install the koi8-c fonts (issue 1 above).
It should also install (in separate subdirectories) fonts.aliases for
koi8-r and koi8-u as described above (issue 2) and advise the user,
that if they need the strict standard compliance for some reason, they
should install the corresponding fontsets separately using the other
ports. Those ports will then be able to remove the "dummy" fonts.aliases
files...
The next round of bickering follows. My responses inlined:
On Thursday 05 September 2002 12:38 am, Andrey A. Chernov wrote:
= On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:18:15 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote:
=
= > provide the entire KOI8-R, the X11 does not and thus no app will
= > rely on it. I understand the compatibility issues, and I know,
= > that no vendor would write an application, that uses those special
= > characters -- because of, uhm, compatibility issues...
=
= Applications which follow standards will do.
No standard _requires_ an application to use those symbols while the
brokennes of the most widely installed fonts (earlier Cronyx ones)
_prevents_ them from doing so. Hence, no such application exists.
= There is no differences koi8-r vs. koi8-u and 8859-1 vs. 8859-15 in the
= matter we discuss.
=
= > And lack of counterexamples from you implies, that you are too. The
=
= Counterexamples are easy, f.e. FIDO newsgroups gated which use full
= KOI8-R pseudographics.
Reading those in "full beauty" requires installing the separate port --
of updated Cronyx fonts -- anyway. My claim, that no application exists,
that makes use of those few symbols stands.
= > Sometimes a standard is discarded even without a formal replacement
= > -- even in FreeBSD (tcp_drop_synfin, for example). This particular
= > standard -- koi8-r -- was introduced by you, and it increasingly
= > looks like your personal attachment to it is affecting your
= > judgement.
= koi8-r is not called back or discarded, it means it will stay forever.
= If you are not happy with koi8-r - make your own standard and tell
= people to use it.
The two standards are already made -- koi8-u, and an even more complete
koi8-c (which your web-pages misleadingly claim to be for "ancient
Russian texts"). And I *am* telling people to use it. In this very
thread, in fact.
And people do -- check your own ${X11BASE}/lib/X11/locale/koi8-c. It is
just that there are no matching fonts installed by default and if one
wonders into where they are supposed to be -- lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic --
one will only find Russian fonts in there.
-mi
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