Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:34:05 -0500 From: Leonard Lilla <leonard_lilla@gmx.net> To: "'Heiko Wundram (Beenic)'" <wundram@beenic.net> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: install Message-ID: <0JR700COZINIIC40@VL-MH-MR001.ip.videotron.ca> In-Reply-To: <200711082132.46466.wundram@beenic.net>
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The ("lower ranks" of the) FreeBSD audience generally have a much more
mature view on this. They're very helpful, if you ask them questions you
might have, but they don't see it as an evangelical mission to keep you =
with
"their"=20
system, because they don't need you to look up to them. If you like it, =
be
our guest and stay, if you don't, leave at your leisure. If you ask, be
aware that we're all just acquaintances here, so don't overdo your =
welcome
by being rude or taking the arm when all you're given is the little =
finger.
This is not an elitist attitude, it's simply the grown-up thing to do.
FreeBSD for most of us simply is a tool to get a job done (and a hell of =
a
good tool at that for me), and not some kind of pissing-contest between
youths. If you look at the "higher ranks" of the Linux developers, =
you'll
see the same
phenomenon: Linux is a means to an end, and probably besides ESR, for =
most
of them not a holy mission.
Absolutely, and that is what I had heard about your community and that =
is
what I wanted to find out. I wanted to get away from children, childish
behavior, and poor attitude and non-standardized environment most open
source Linux have become. Again, this is very, very pleasant and I will
assure you that I will not over step my boundaries again.
Thank you for the invite,
L=E9onard Lilla
-----Original Message-----
From: Heiko Wundram (Beenic) [mailto:wundram@beenic.net]=20
Sent: November 8, 2007 3:33 PM
To: Leonard Lilla
Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: install
Am Donnerstag, 8. November 2007 20:11:14 schrieben Sie:
> Wow, yeah sorry man... I did not even realize you guys were having a
> funding drive. Ouch, that sucks, probably not the support you were =
looking
> for.
Just for the reference, do you actually know what Open Source really is?
What=20
its good sides are, and what the bad sides are?
Basically, even in open source software (like FreeBSD), you get nothing =
for=20
free. Either:
1) you need it so badly that you do it yourself or pay someone else to =
do it
for you, or
2) you _kindly_ ask other people to do it for you _for free_ (always
remember=20
that!) by giving constructive feedback and them implementing it with =
taking=20
your feedback into account because they need it/want to implement it =
anyway,
but
3) that simply doesn't work in the rant(ish) kind of way you gave =
feedback.
In the second case, you're not guaranteed that anybody will actually =
take
the=20
time to implement what you would like to see in the system, because they =
may
(and most probably will) have a completely different prioritization of =
the=20
multitude of open things to take into consideration in building a =
functional
and stable operating system.
> But I have heard some great things about FreeBSD as a server. Now I=20
> saw that there was a 'dummy downed' version and I thought I would give =
it
a
> go. And man, that was not pleasant.
Sure, fine, it wasn't pleasant for you. We've heard that now.
I personally couldn't care less (and wouldn't be a volunteer to take on =
any=20
form of redesign of the installer), because I had absolutely no problems
with=20
the installation process when I first installed FreeBSD about half a =
year
ago=20
_after reading the manual_ (yes, I'm a sort of freshman to *BSD too) and =
neither for the multitude of times since then (well, to be fair: I =
didn't go
the 2-CD-way yet, I always did a net-install).
I switched to FreeBSD because of licensing issues with the Bluetooth =
stack
of=20
Linux (and especially the BlueZ-userland, because every, even the basic=20
system headers, are licensed under the GPL), because I develop, amongst
other=20
development for the mobile segment, commercial Bluetooth applications as =
a=20
day-job, and for me it's most certainly not the installer that's a =
concern,=20
but the Bluetooth subsystem. Guess what would happen if I were to beg =
the=20
Bluetooth maintainer of FreeBSD at every turn to implement functionality =
I=20
need (or to fix that which is partially "broken" or incomplete in =
FreeBSD=20
[sorry Maksim, if you're reading this, I most certainly don't mean to=20
belittle your work on the BT stack by this, but I'm talking about =
missing
SCO=20
support and such]), or would simply whine on the list about how FreeBSD =
is
so=20
utterly bad because its Bluetooth support isn't as "enhanced" as the =
Linux=20
one: noone else would react positively to my whining either, because =
most=20
probably they don't need it.
Anyway, after having the first and second look at the system (because of =
FreeBSD's much more liberal licensing) and evaluating whether it was
sensible=20
to build on that which was already finished, I sat down and started to=20
implement my additional requirements, and after some time even switched =
my=20
desktop to FreeBSD (from Gentoo, which I was the ultimate fanboy of =
before=20
that for quite some time), because I was starting to like it. All of my=20
tweaking is possible because FreeBSD is open source, but with it comes =
the=20
price of having to lay hands on the system in case I'm not satisfied =
with
it.
If the second look at FreeBSD would've turned out to discourage me from
going=20
further, I would've most certainly turned away, and I guess noone on the
list=20
would've shed a tear even if I'd have written a mail like yours giving
people=20
the "hard" goodbye.
And, just to get back to what I wrote in the last mail: if you're not =
happy=20
with FreeBSD, do yourself a favor and turn away. And do it with dignity. =
But
if you decide to stay, be welcome, but if you feel something needs =
fixing,=20
don't whine about it, but take it in your own hands. By the multitude of
ways=20
you can do so (PR, anyone?).
> If I may help you ask? Sure. I would=20
> suggest the team working on the UI for the install to think about =
their
> action following a condition a little better. That would not result in =
the
> user not having to find themselves in frustrating situations like the =
one
I
> was in. Being that I chose various port options. At the end the =
install
> shows a list to review, containing categories and sub categories. =
After
all
> selection is complete and install is in progress, I was prompted for =
CD
one
> as if it needed the info for the categories list, and then it would =
ask
for
> CD two to acquire the info for each subcategory. Just have them create =
a
> list kept in memory with all port requirements and build port install =
from
> CD2 using list from CD1 in memory. I don't know that much about
> programming, but I do believe that you must be able to do that, right?
So it seems you do know something about programming and about UI =
designing.=20
Would it be too much to ask to actually take the time to read the =
sysinstall
source (which is pretty well readable by the way), and to check why the=20
decisions were taken as they were? And to prepare a patch or just a=20
recommended screen order for sysinstall, which you can then submit via a =
PR=20
request?
Maybe someone takes the time to implement what you request, but most
probably,=20
it'll then be because they wanted to implement it anyway (because they =
found
the install similarily irritating).
> Well, again... I do apologize for my comments, but I had to know
> what kind of community it is that I am presented with. I must say that
your
> response shows a very interesting aspect of your community that I have
been
> hearing about. Perhaps I will continue to stay informed about your
> community.
I really don't know what you're trying to tell me by this, but I guess
you're=20
trying to say something like the following, which I think is very true =
(and=20
was something that made me stay with FreeBSD on the second look I =
mentioned=20
above):
Linux tries to be the better Windows and development efforts (by a lot =
of=20
people) are driven by the desire to improve usability and simplicity of =
the=20
system, simply because lots of developers take satisfaction out of=20
being "better" than Windows and equally "accessible" even for the=20
computer-agnostic.
It's basically the wish of being "1337", cool, whatever (because of =
using=20
a "non-standard" system, thereby being non-conformant), combined with =
the=20
desire of the individual developer to "shine" in the community with his=20
contribution to get some extra recognition in his "3733t" circles. =
That's
why=20
you'll easily get (the "lower ranks" of) Linux developers and users to =
react
to your kind of comments with all kinds of replies, ranging from most =
stupid
back-flaming and "M$-fanboy" name-calling up to offers to help you in =
the=20
process of installation such as coming over to visit you, and lots of =
other=20
things equally over-the-top (at least for my taste).
The ("lower ranks" of the) FreeBSD audience generally have a much more
mature=20
view on this. They're very helpful, if you ask them questions you might
have,=20
but they don't see it as an evangelical mission to keep you with "their" =
system, because they don't need you to look up to them. If you like it, =
be=20
our guest and stay, if you don't, leave at your leisure. If you ask, be
aware=20
that we're all just acquaintances here, so don't overdo your welcome by
being=20
rude or taking the arm when all you're given is the little finger.
This is not an elitist attitude, it's simply the grown-up thing to do.
FreeBSD=20
for most of us simply is a tool to get a job done (and a hell of a good =
tool
at that for me), and not some kind of pissing-contest between youths. If =
you
look at the "higher ranks" of the Linux developers, you'll see the same=20
phenomenon: Linux is a means to an end, and probably besides ESR, for =
most
of=20
them not a holy mission.
PS: I'm posting this to questions@, too (even though you didn't with =
your
mail=20
to me), because I think this discussion deserves a broader audience than
just=20
a private mail exchange.
PPS: Don't understand the term "lower rank" and "higher rank" in a wrong
way:=20
every community has "celebrities" in one way or another, even FreeBSD. I =
personally would most certainly qualify myself as "lower rank." Others =
(for=20
example comitters, easily recognizable by the @freebsd.org mail-address)
most=20
certainly are "high rankers."
--=20
Heiko Wundram
Product & Application Development
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