Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 20:02:30 -0600 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog@freebsd.org> Cc: Warner Losh <imp@freebsd.org>, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" <freebsd-arch@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Updating reboot's default Message-ID: <CANCZdfrO-V5756-EAnsbPXFALXFysDoedat%2Bs36NB0aUmu2fjQ@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20220622003543.GE18075@eureka.lemis.com> References: <CANCZdfq0bkw4RGy=HoQhx0VHck=JQzoiONWifMY3n37Mpgz17w@mail.gmail.com> <20220622003543.GE18075@eureka.lemis.com>
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--000000000000738c5605e1ffbb3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 6:35 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 8:01:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > 15 or 20 years ago, we talked about changing the default for reboot from > > 'right now' to being safe shutdown. There were arguments made against it > > due to tiny appliances and such. > > > > Time has past, and this oddity has persisted. It's time to revisit that > > decision. > > > > I'd propose that we keep 'fastboot' and 'fasthalt' having the immediate > > behavior. However, the 'reboot' command will switch from '-q' behavior to > > '-r' behavior. > > Somehow I hear this echo "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". My > understanding has always been that shutdown(8) is the program that > shuts down and maybe reboots the system, while reboot(8) is a quick > and dirty way to reboot the system, along with halt(8) if you don't > want to reboot. > > So why change this? At the very least you'll confuse people who want > to use the old method. My guess is that you have some reason that's > not immediately apparent, but what? > Other systems have the behavior I'm advocating. We are the odd duck. This means we tend to violate POLA here. And there is no good reason to do this when fastboot is available. Nobody that advocated to keep this difference as useful the last time it came up still wants to advocate. Most people find the behavior annoying and only a vanishingly small minority of people like it. In fact, so far nobody has even asked to please not, let alone come up with a good reason to retain this behavior. So, I'm polling arch@ to see if anyone like that shows up. Warner And no, I don't really have an axe to grind in this matter. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php > --000000000000738c5605e1ffbb3f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 6:35 PM Greg 'groggy' Le= hey <<a href=3D"mailto:grog@freebsd.org">grog@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:= <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord= er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at=C2=A0 = 8:01:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:<br> > 15 or 20 years ago, we talked about changing the default for reboot fr= om<br> > 'right now' to being safe shutdown. There were arguments made = against it<br> > due to tiny appliances and such.<br> ><br> > Time has past, and this oddity has persisted. It's time to revisit= that<br> > decision.<br> ><br> > I'd propose that we keep 'fastboot' and 'fasthalt'= having the immediate<br> > behavior. However, the 'reboot' command will switch from '= -q' behavior to<br> > '-r' behavior.<br> <br> Somehow I hear this echo "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"= ;.=C2=A0 My<br> understanding has always been that shutdown(8) is the program that<br> shuts down and maybe reboots the system, while reboot(8) is a quick<br> and dirty way to reboot the system, along with halt(8) if you don't<br> want to reboot.<br> <br> So why change this?=C2=A0 At the very least you'll confuse people who w= ant<br> to use the old method.=C2=A0 My guess is that you have some reason that'= ;s<br> not immediately apparent, but what?<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D= "auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Other systems have the behavior I'm = advocating. We are the odd duck. This means we tend to violate POLA here. A= nd there is no good reason to do this when fastboot is available. Nobody th= at advocated to keep this difference as useful the last time it came up sti= ll wants to advocate. Most people find the behavior annoying and only a van= ishingly small minority of people like it. In fact, so far nobody has even = asked to please not, let alone come up with a good reason to retain this be= havior. So, I'm polling arch@ to see if anyone like that shows up.</div= ><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Warner=C2=A0</div><div dir= =3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div clas= s=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .= 8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> And no, I don't really have an axe to grind in this matter.<br> <br> Greg<br> --<br> Sent from my desktop computer.<br> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.<br> This message is digitally signed.=C2=A0 If your Microsoft mail program<br> reports problems, please read <a href=3D"http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php" r= el=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.= php</a><br> </blockquote></div></div></div> --000000000000738c5605e1ffbb3f--
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