Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 10:52:53 -0600 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Cc: Eugene Grosbein <eugen@grosbein.net>, Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>, Stefan Blachmann <sblachmann@gmail.com>, Emmanuel Vadot <manu@bidouilliste.com>, Ed Maste <emaste@freebsd.org>, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Reasons for keeping sc(4) and libvgl ? Message-ID: <CANCZdfomEZW-dMfad8-LhVCHLQ-1W3adKaGSGj-n%2BLDMhG2xCg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20220624011504.ab5591564ee40d5f0310bebd@dec.sakura.ne.jp> References: <20211126160454.3eb827365a02103169ab9adc@bidouilliste.com> <20220621201924.e9b96876c947140ac1f3b7a4@bidouilliste.com> <3d09c86a-9840-f8bf-4725-8098d958a01d@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> <202206211901.25LJ1uBd067376@critter.freebsd.dk> <CAPyFy2Ca83X042jc5QE-g=eHAfnukHScrTSyaLRi4UxeTBasJQ@mail.gmail.com> <20220622044923.6e2fac81c1e8205872d9de11@bidouilliste.com> <CACc-My0q-Ods_O-TDru=tEwjSOaUJZZd=ZTzD46nY1gjGYO_VA@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfoRCB5RuszKWTQazRuseRnapVqMTANnQTR0b61AHw54aQ@mail.gmail.com> <YrKhlZnlF%2ByxZd9X@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <CANCZdfraihrmoHsu85aFWUT3zwTO%2B-x_Jbcdk0f%2Bxrr7kMxckg@mail.gmail.com> <6b7997d6-f8ed-c4e4-91eb-da9b20eb0a14@grosbein.net> <CANCZdfq1mGynidmm%2BPniYdmb5Tu-fh6N6C8zm8oKwB5mnoj5yA@mail.gmail.com> <8d6ae56e-9265-6b2e-c966-1c51f00f6c88@grosbein.net> <CANCZdfpZR6H1s=zLTOdCrt429MHy0fdVh5m9HUFMmhnJH6nF3g@mail.gmail.com> <20220624011504.ab5591564ee40d5f0310bebd@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
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--0000000000008e1f6305e220495a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 10:15 AM Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:44:28 -0600 > Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:37 AM Eugene Grosbein <eugen@grosbein.net> > wrote: > > > > > 23.06.2022 22:26, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > Giant is being removed entirely, and with it all straggler drivers > that > > > aren't converted by the removal date. > > > > There's no fixed date for this, at the present time, but I'm about to > > > commit changes that make it impossible > > > > for new code to reference Giant. Having Giant, at all, causes slow > downs > > > elsewhere in the system, which > > > > is why we're pushing to remove it entirely. > > > > > > Why is it better to lose working code then to keep it "slow"? > > > > > > > Supporting Giant, at all, means creating extra taskqueues, processes, > etc. > > It means extra checks in > > all the code paths since Giant is so 'special'. To do this just to > support > > an obsolete console seems to > > many to be an unwise tradeoff once everything else is in order. > Especially > > since there have been years > > for people that care about the problems to arrange solutions. > > > > We are still some time away from everything else eliminating Giant, so > > there's still time to get things > > fixed. However, the increasingly obscure nature of the problems and/or > > their diminished relevancy > > to the project means that absent code showing up (either from the > hobbyist > > community or from > > funded work), the problems will remain because the limited resources of > > those working on the > > project aren't ample enough for them to be solved. If they are important > to > > you, and nobody > > else is working on them, now is your chance. Ideally, there'd be enough > > time and people to > > solve all the problems, but there is not. > > > > Warner > > Is it possible / planned to make atkbd and psm GIANT-free? > They shouldn't go away, as at least some notebooks implements their > keyboards / pointing devices attached with them, not USB. > They're clearly show-stoppers, I think. > I agree. These truly are show-stoppers because we can't boot w/o them on a lot of hardware. Warner --0000000000008e1f6305e220495a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 10:15 AM Tomo= aki AOKI <<a href=3D"mailto:junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp">junchoon@dec.saku= ra.ne.jp</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D= "margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le= ft:1ex">On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:44:28 -0600<br> Warner Losh <<a href=3D"mailto:imp@bsdimp.com" target=3D"_blank">imp@bsd= imp.com</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:37 AM Eugene Grosbein <<a href=3D"mailto:= eugen@grosbein.net" target=3D"_blank">eugen@grosbein.net</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > > 23.06.2022 22:26, Warner Losh wrote:<br> > ><br> > > > Giant is being removed entirely, and with it all straggler d= rivers that<br> > > aren't converted by the removal date.<br> > > > There's no fixed date for this, at the present time, but= I'm about to<br> > > commit changes that make it impossible<br> > > > for new code to reference Giant. Having Giant, at all, cause= s slow downs<br> > > elsewhere in the system, which<br> > > > is why we're pushing to remove it entirely.<br> > ><br> > > Why is it better to lose working code then to keep it "slow&= quot;?<br> > ><br> > <br> > Supporting Giant, at all, means creating extra taskqueues, processes, = etc.<br> > It means extra checks in<br> > all the code paths since Giant is so 'special'. To do this jus= t to support<br> > an obsolete console seems to<br> > many to be an unwise tradeoff once everything else is in order. Especi= ally<br> > since there have been years<br> > for people that care about the problems to arrange solutions.<br> > <br> > We are still some time away from everything else eliminating Giant, so= <br> > there's still time to get things<br> > fixed. However, the increasingly obscure nature of the problems and/or= <br> > their diminished relevancy<br> > to the project means that absent code showing up (either from the hobb= yist<br> > community or from<br> > funded work), the problems will remain because the limited resources o= f<br> > those working on the<br> > project aren't ample enough for them to be solved. If they are imp= ortant to<br> > you, and nobody<br> > else is working on them, now is your chance. Ideally, there'd be e= nough<br> > time and people to<br> > solve all the problems, but there is not.<br> > <br> > Warner<br> <br> Is it possible / planned to make atkbd and psm GIANT-free?<br> They shouldn't go away, as at least some notebooks implements their<br> keyboards / pointing devices attached with them, not USB.<br> They're clearly show-stoppers, I think.<br></blockquote><div><br></div>= <div>I agree. These truly are show-stoppers because we can't boot w/o t= hem</div><div>on a lot of hardware.</div><div><br></div><div>Warner=C2=A0</= div></div></div> --0000000000008e1f6305e220495a--
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