Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 22:37:29 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl <pschmehl_lists@tx.rr.com> To: Alfred Perlstein <alfred@freebsd.org>, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who was the mental genius Message-ID: <8CA324878D330942AB8AE0B3@Pauls-MacBook-Pro.local> In-Reply-To: <539130B3.9030604@freebsd.org> References: <C38D07C36CF649C84A3B9362@localhost> <20140605211831.GA90310@spectrum.skysmurf.nl> <D2EE1900E54F5DC324E503D3@localhost> <5390E62E.6090807@madpilot.net> <6CEF0183772C97582B196466@Pauls-MacBook-Pro.local> <539130B3.9030604@freebsd.org>
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--On June 5, 2014 at 8:08:35 PM -0700 Alfred Perlstein <alfred@freebsd.org>
wrote:
>
> On 6/5/14, 7:32 PM, Paul Schmehl wrote:
>> --On June 5, 2014 at 11:50:38 PM +0200 Guido Falsi <mad@madpilot.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/05/14 23:43, Paul Schmehl wrote:
>>>> --On June 5, 2014 at 11:18:31 PM +0200 "A.J. 'Fonz' van Werven"
>>>> <freebsd@skysmurf.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul Schmehl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That decided it was a good idea to completely break ports to force
>>>>>> people to upgrade? You couldn't come up with a warning system
>>>>>> instead
>>>>>> of outright breaking ports? The idiots are apparently running the
>>>>>> asylum. {{sigh}}
>>>>>
>>>>> It might help to know exactly what you're talking about... What is it
>>>>> that
>>>>> broke?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The change to make that causes this when you run pkg commands or try to
>>>> build ports:
>>>>
>>>> Unknown modifier 't'
>>>>
>>>> It was done deliberately to break ports so that people would be forced
>>>> to upgrade to a supported version.
>>>>
>>>> <https://forums.freebsd.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46291>;
>>>
>>> No it was not done "deliberately"
>>>
>>> Newer freebsd version moved to a newer make utility, and support for the
>>> old one has been dropped after support for all old releases containing
>>> it was ceased.
>>>
>>
>> So they dropped the support accidentally? Is this really the time to
>> argue semantics?
>>
>>> Which releases are supported and for how long is well known, and
>>> published in here when a new release is published:
>>>
>>> http://www.freebsd.org/security/security.html#sup
>>>
>>> The updates are free, as in "no payment needed". What's keeping you from
>>> performing a binary update of the base system every year or so?
>>>
>>
>> I have two hosts on the internet for which the backup system failed.
>> I didn't catch it right away, so now I'm several days behind on
>> backups. I need to install a new system, but it requires ports I
>> don't yet have installed. So now I have two options; upgrade with my
>> fingers crossed and hope it works or scramble to find some way to
>> backup before I upgrade just in case the upgrade fails.
>>
>>> Running such an old system as any of the unsupported releases is also
>>> most probably exposing you to security vulnerabilities.
>>>
>>
>> First of all, 8.3 is not an old system. Secondly, you used to be able
>> to run "old" systems for a long time after support was dropped without
>> encountering issues like this. Finally, I'm a port maintainer of a
>> fair number of ports, so FreeBSD isn't free for me. I put a lot of
>> time into it.
>>
>> When such a drastic change is made, it should be well advertised in
>> advance (think the pkgng announcement you get every time you install a
>> port) and not implemented in such a disruptive manner. It's clear from
>> the forum announcement that I linked to that I was not the only one
>> caught by surprise and that it didn't even work on supported versions
>> when the change was first implemented.
>>
>>> Sometimes to change things you need to break compatibility, the project
>>> did wait till it was coherent with what was promised before doing this.
>>>
>>
>> What you call "the project" is made up of people. SOMEONE should be
>> thinking through the impact on end users and helping to plan such
>> major transitions in a way that's least disruptive IF you want the
>> system to remain viable.
>>
>> Perhaps this is part of the reason adoption of FreeBSD has dropped so
>> dramatically over the years. I'm retiring in 18 months. When I
>> leave, the last FreeBSD system goes with me. No one is even
>> interested in learning it any more. FreeBSD used to rule the web.
>> Now it's Linux. There's a lesson in there for those that are
>> listening, but apparently "the project" is not. Which is sad, because
>> FreeBSD, IMNSHO, is a very good OS.
>>
>> There's no need to respond to this. I'm just venting. And clearly my
>> opinion doesn't matter anyway.
> I think your opinion matters.
>
> I agree I would be rudely surprised by such a breakage myself. That said
> we need to find a way to desupport things eventually.
>
> Any ideas on what should have been done that can be done in a short
> amount of code as possible? Perhaps there's some way to determine
> between the old and new makes and just add some kind of target like:
>
># psuedo make(1) code:
> .ifndef THIS_IS_NEW_MAKE
> .BEGIN:
> echo your system is running an unsupported version of FreeBSD the
> last version to support this is r232423
> echo please run "svn update -r232423" to get a working ports tree as
> of that date or upgrade to a more recent
> echo freebsd release using freebsd-update [[insert link to
> freebsd-update]]
> exit 1
> .endif
>
Something like that would have been more than adequate. As I pointed out,
the warning you get about pkgng and the 9/1/2014 deadline is perfect. It's
been there for a couple of months, and it pops up ever time you do a port.
If you miss that and don't convert, you don't have anyone but yourself to
blame.
Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst
As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions
are my own and not those of my employer.
*******************************************
"It is as useless to argue with those who have
renounced the use of reason as to administer
medication to the dead." Thomas Jefferson
"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very
intelligent person could believe in them." George Orwell
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