Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:02:51 -0700 From: Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> To: Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc. Message-ID: <CAMPTd_CXPD=5fZB05y%2Bq2Y_WO9-BJNAutRDhAiQHQ7kXbv8eGA@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5BCE171C-8D95-47E9-AD8E-8F2B75F5E8B5@freebsd.org> References: <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com> <5BCE171C-8D95-47E9-AD8E-8F2B75F5E8B5@freebsd.org>
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--000000000000e0ae2905e25e73d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 11:53 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > On 26. Jun 2022, at 20:19, Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do > it), > > > I didn=E2=80=99t insinuate that it=E2=80=99s good for me to post to three= lists at a time > either, but how would you decide which one to leave out when responding t= o > a post you received on multiple lists? My original response reduced the > number of lists involved, but I was quoted on all three lists again, so I > also responded on all of them. > > what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D HTML. = UTF > is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients and > does not require HTML for support. > > > At some point in this email exchange he was suggesting to remove any kind > of special characters from email and documentation and my original respon= se > (he quoted) was partially about this. > > If it=E2=80=99s just about HTML: I would love to eliminate HTML email, bu= t most > email clients create it without the user having a chance to intervene. An > example is iOS Mail, which creates html as soon as you copy and paste > almost anything into it. AFAIK it still manages to create a useful plain > text alternative (unlike BBOS 10, if anyone remembers), which makes it > better than other email clients - so filtering away html in this case wou= ld > be fine. But there is no option that says =E2=80=9Csend plaintext email= =E2=80=9D. > > I also agree that the original exchange that sparked this debate was quit= e > terrible in terms of email formatting (it looked like outlook, no quoting= , > top posting like exchanging written letters, using various font types and > sizes). So if we could eliminate these kind of emails, I would be happy. > > Cheers > Michael > > p.s. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure top posting is also against netiquette - unl= ess *you* > do it of course ;) > > > Walter > > On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote= : > >> >> >> On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> >> >> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/e= n/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc >> >> >> FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections >> >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754 >> >> >> I'm glad that HTML is supported. >> >> >> No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists. >> Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's. >> >> Also, I want support for things such as PNG. >> >> >> Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes, >> but rightly tend to be administratively size limited. >> >> What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in >> >> the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all >> >> the messages? >> >> >> There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat. >> Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and >> via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat. >> >> >> we are dealing with real people working with the email >> >> clients available to them in 2022 >> >> >> Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette >> won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and discipline= d. >> >> >> Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various >> arguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave ve= ry >> specific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on >> mobile devices where people don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects= of how >> things are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should stil= l >> be followed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if w= e >> want to have communication happen on our mailing lists. >> >> My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to >> follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically choos= es >> the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer= to >> use ASCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80= =98" to "'" >> manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an >> acceptable experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen. >> >> If your email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it= =E2=80=99s time to >> fix your setup. >> >> -m >> >> p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists? >> >> > > -- > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of > zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brand= eis > > Sorry about the top posting. Many email clients default to top posting. I= t can be easy to forget to go to the bottom of a giant post :). As long as the client does a dual post, both plain text and HTML, I don=E2=80=99t see = a big problem with HTML posts. For most posts on these mailing lists, there is little need for the fancy features of HTML in list emails. Breaking DKIM so that you can make emails 7 bit ASCII clean is a bad idea in the modern era (where security is a now actually a thing). Walter --=20 The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandei= s --000000000000e0ae2905e25e73d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 11:53 AM Michael Gmelin <<a href= =3D"mailto:grembo@freebsd.org">grembo@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div= dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 26= . Jun 2022, at 20:19, Walter Parker <<a href=3D"mailto:walterp@gmail.com= " target=3D"_blank">walterp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></= div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr"><d= iv>So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do = it),</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I didn=E2=80=99t ins= inuate that it=E2=80=99s good for me to post to three lists at a time eithe= r, but how would you decide which one to leave out when responding to a pos= t you received on multiple lists? My original response reduced the number o= f lists involved, but I was quoted on all three lists again, so I also resp= onded on all of them.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><= div dir=3D"ltr"><div>what about the original post? He was asking about HTML= . UTF-8 !=3D HTML. UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by m= ost email clients and does not require HTML for support.</div><div><br></di= v></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At some point in this email = exchange he was suggesting to remove any kind of special characters from em= ail and documentation and my original response (he quoted) was partially ab= out this.</div><div><br></div><div>If it=E2=80=99s just about HTML: I would= love to eliminate HTML email, but most email clients create it without the= user having a chance to intervene. An example is iOS Mail, which creates h= tml as soon as you copy and paste almost anything into it. AFAIK it still m= anages to create a useful plain text alternative (unlike BBOS 10, if anyone= remembers), which makes it better than other email clients - so filtering = away html in this case would be fine. But there is no option that says =E2= =80=9Csend plaintext email=E2=80=9D.</div><div><br></div><div>I also agree = that the original exchange that sparked this debate was quite terrible in t= erms of email formatting (it looked like outlook, no quoting, top posting l= ike exchanging written letters, using various font types and sizes). So if = we could eliminate these kind of emails, I would be happy.</div><div><br></= div><div>Cheers</div><div>Michael=C2=A0</div><div><br></div>p.s. I=E2=80=99= m pretty sure top posting is also against netiquette - unless *you* do it o= f course ;)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div = dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Walter<br></div><br><div c= lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 26, = 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <<a href=3D"mailto:grembo@freebsd.org" ta= rget=3D"_blank">grembo@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas= s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r= gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div>= <div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">O= n 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <<a href=3D"mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com= " target=3D"_blank">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote><= /div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<blockquote type= =3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main= /documentation/content/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc" target=3D"= _blank">https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/cont= ent/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc</a></span><br></blockquote><bl= ockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"ci= te"><span>FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections</span><br><= /blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"https://bugs.freebsd= .org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754" target=3D"_blank">https://bugs.free= bsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754</a></span><br></blockquote><block= quote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"= ><span>I'm glad that HTML is supported.</span><br></blockquote><span></= span><br><span>No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists.</span= ><br><span>Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why= 9;s.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Also, I wan= t support for things such as PNG.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><= span>Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes,</span><br><s= pan>but rightly tend to be administratively size limited.</span><br><span><= /span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>What is the possibility of gettin= g the/a "netiquette" link in</span><br></blockquote><blockquote t= ype=3D"cite"><span>the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended = to all</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>the messages?= </span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>There is no such footer appe= nded to the lists, because they're bloat.</span><br><span>Their aims us= ually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and</span><br><span>vi= a the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat.</span><br><spa= n></span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>we are dealin= g with real people working with the email</span><br></blockquote><blockquot= e type=3D"cite"><span>clients available to them in 2022</span><br></blockqu= ote><span></span><br><span>Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, a= nd the netiquette</span><br><span>won validity for good reasons and is stil= l taught trained and disciplined.</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></d= iv><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Trying to stop people from using U= TF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various arguments from different people witho= ut context is bad style - I gave very specific examples, including the fact= that a lot of email is written on mobile devices where people don=E2=80=99= t have control over many aspects of how things are sent and I argued which = parts of netiquette could/should still be followed given the realities of t= oday and where we need to relax if we want to have communication happen on = our mailing lists.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb= (0,0,0)">My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way = to follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically choos= es the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer= to use ASCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "= =E2=80=98" to "'" manually or disable the features that = make typing on such a device an acceptable experience. Just won=E2=80=99t h= appen.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><= div><font color=3D"#000000"><span>If your email client and/or your desktop = can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2=80=99s time to fix your setup.</span></fo= nt></div><div><br></div><div>-m</div><div><br></div><div>p.s. Is it really = necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists?</div><div><br></div></= div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><span = style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collap= se;color:rgb(136,136,136)">The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidiou= s encroachment by men=C2=A0of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.= =C2=A0 -- Justice Louis D.=C2=A0Brandeis</span></div></div> </div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div>Sorry about the top= posting. Many email clients default to top posting. It can be easy to forg= et to go to the bottom of a giant post :). As long as the client does a dua= l post, both plain text and HTML, I don=E2=80=99t see a big problem with HT= ML posts. For most posts on these mailing lists, there is little need for t= he fancy features of HTML in list emails. Breaking DKIM so that you can mak= e emails 7 bit ASCII clean is a bad idea in the modern era (where security = is a now actually a thing).<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><b= r></div><div dir=3D"auto">Walter<br><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D= "auto"><br></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" da= ta-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-seri= f;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136,136,136)">The great= est dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men=C2=A0of zeal, = well-meaning but without understanding. =C2=A0 -- Justice Louis D.=C2=A0Bra= ndeis</span></div> --000000000000e0ae2905e25e73d3--
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