Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:15:27 +0200 From: Niclas Zeising <zeising@freebsd.org> To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com, Pete Wright <pete@nomadlogic.org> Cc: FreeBSD X11 <x11@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Ars Technica article Message-ID: <9d54c4fd-5848-ba10-5a36-90e94f68e000@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <5d7dd8e81ae934adf7dfdf389faa5d15@udns.ultimatedns.net> References: <5d7dd8e81ae934adf7dfdf389faa5d15@udns.ultimatedns.net>
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On 2020-04-14 01:22, Chris wrote: > On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:40:35 -0700 Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org said >=20 >> =C2=A0What direction change are you talking about? >> > As alluded to earlier; the importation of so much Linux code. On one >> > hand; yes it shortens the time-to-implementation. But in the broader >> > scope; it's more work (and time) in the long term for it's removal, >> > and replacement -- assuming that day ever arrives. >> >> this misses the key point that there is literally *zero* people being=20 >> paid full-time to implement graphics drivers for FreeBSD, whereas at=20 >> both Intel and AMD developers are being paid to develop drivers for=20 >> the linux kernel.=C2=A0 They are also getting access to documentation = and=20 >> other resources on how these chips are implemented which I am not=20 >> certain we have access to either. > ??? why ??? > This has *always* been what's said in response to th(is|ese) topics. > Look I'm not saying this to be a bitch/whiner/troll, and I already have > enough bikesheds to last a lifetime, thank you. But why do we not have > at *least* the documentation? Is this something I can purchase, and > *donate* to the project? Is it so cost prohibitive? If so, can a pool > be created to acquire the needed funds? Documentation is far from enough. You also need people to implement=20 what is documented, and when it comes to graphics drivers, there is a=20 lot of things to implement. Even if you could produce the documents=20 needed (which I doubt, things like that are usually under strict NDA and=20 so on), it is not enough. Both Intel and AMD have employed people=20 working on these drivers, there is no way we can match this, and it is=20 much better if we can spend our resources using their work, instead of=20 reimplementing it. Even the previous version of the drm driver (what's now called=20 drm-legacy) was a port of the corresponding linux drivers, although=20 instead of using lkpi (which didn't exist at the time), calls where=20 changed to use FreeBSD kpis. This took a huge effort, and a lot of=20 time, and in the end, it was very hard to update. > >> There is nothing preventing others from standing up and implementing=20 >> non-linux derived graphics drivers though!=C2=A0 I would just suggest=20 >> taking a moment to understand how much of a lift this work is from a=20 >> dev perspective, let alone support after bits land.=C2=A0 At the end o= f the=20 >> day most people just assume graphics to work so they can get on with=20 >> their real work they need to accomplish. > I fully appreciate what you're saying here, and I couldn't be more grat= eful > for any, and all the time, and dedication put into this project. I'm > simply *dumbfounded* that everyone *else* can manage *native* support. > But we *can't*. I'm *really* interested in discovering *why* so I can > perhaps initiate *change*. It's a simple question of resources. We have 0 people working on this=20 full time, or any paid time for that matter. On Linux (and Windows) the=20 drivers are implemented by employees of Intel and AMD. As I said=20 earlier, there is no way we can match this effort, so we should re-use=20 as much of their effort as possible. Regards --=20 Niclas Zeising
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