Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 19:12:50 -0700 From: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) Message-ID: <CAOtMX2jF-FASS3G5cZ_uFdij4-S3FKVYP1EHCPAYMnPaAaWYcA@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoJJhGQ750h9HREkhUcqCA%2B5jO260UotyRjDQTKR_AHrA@mail.gmail.com> References: <wojtek@puchar.net> <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net> <201901032228.x03MSxkq087945@slippy.cwsent.com> <CAOtMX2jdDSUwtifm=a_nqJWg_5yCOoe4BYGmO4QkbysRZ8UCrg@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfoJJhGQ750h9HREkhUcqCA%2B5jO260UotyRjDQTKR_AHrA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:43 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 3:53 PM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> w= rote: >> > >> > In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech >> > Puchar wr >> > ites: >> > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pu= shed* >> > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said >> > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is = a >> > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat. >> > > > >> > > > And this is why one reason people say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93FreeBSD= is dying=C3=A2=E2=82=AC . >> > > > >> > > dying for whom? >> > >> > Not to answer this question but to think strategically: >> > >> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of >> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines, >> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today= , >> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations >> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux >> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their >> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is >> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being >> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for >> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of >> > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running >> > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a >> > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and >> > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public >> > cloud and back again easily. >> > >> > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is >> > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more. >> > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs i= t >> > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost >> > effectiveness of standing up applications. >> > >> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the >> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language >> > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating >> > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a >> > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position >> > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and >> > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in port= s. >> > >> > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator >> > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs i= n >> > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other >> > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or >> > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on on= e >> > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluste= r. >> > >> > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future. >> > >> > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Cheers, >> > Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> >> > FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org >> > >> > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. >> >> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think >> there's any reason to put it into base. The interesting thing about >> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed, >> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian >> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji >> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. These are the >> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the >> language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports. >> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base >> system, it might be Lua. Though high level, its embeddable and nicely >> complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and >> it even in the NetBSD kernel. > > > We already have. The boot loader uses the latest, almost stock version. Z= FS uses it's weird, hacked version to send down config programs. The build = glue to get a luac is pretty small at this point :) > > Warner Wow, I'm way behind then. Maybe I'll actually need to learn it. -Alan
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