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Date:      Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:53:56 +1030
From:      Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To:        Tom <tom@sdf.com>
Cc:        Marc Tardif <admin@wtbwts.com>, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: hardware vs software stripping
Message-ID:  <20000131155356.B68925@freebie.lemis.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10001302107360.5637-100000@misery.sdf.com>
References:  <20000131120326.D62824@freebie.lemis.com> <Pine.BSF.4.05.10001302107360.5637-100000@misery.sdf.com>

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On Sunday, 30 January 2000 at 21:17:10 -0800, Tom wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, 30 January 2000 at 20:04:18 +0000, Marc Tardif wrote:
>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Greg Lehey wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, 30 January 2000 at 14:24:54 +0000, Marc Tardif wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> using postgresql. The alternatives are either raid-1 which seems too
>>>>> wasteful on disks or raid-5 which provides fault tolerance. This last
>>>>> option could substituted for a tape backup and the possibility of a few
>>>>> minutes down time in case of disk failure.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I understand this sentence.  Are you planning to forget
>>>> RAID-5 after all and use a tape backup?  For reasonably large disks,
>>>> your downtime will be measured in hours, not minutes.  For a RAID-5
>>>> array, you shouldn't get any down time.
>>>
>>> You understood correctly, but I guess you're right. From reading the
>>> dpt.com website, hardware failures are caused by hard-drives 50% of the
>>> time. Also, from one of Simon Shapiro's posting to this mailing list, I
>>> could build a raid 0+5 array which would seem to be an optimal solution
>>> for a database performing random reads and writes. Therefore, I should
>>> probably forget simply using ccd or vinum for a production system.
>>
>> I don't know how you conclude that.  First, the DPT probably won't buy
>> you anything in terms of performance, and secondly it's out of
>> production.
>
>   Well, since I still can order the DPT 3334, I think its demise is
> greatly exagerated...

You can order them.  Others have done that, but some have reported
non-delivery.

> as far as performance goes, it is not a new design and can't keep
> the new disks busy.

Right.

>   Second, a DPT can't do RAID 5 + 0.  It does the RAID 5 in
> hardware.  The RAID 5 you'll have to do in software.

Hmm.  There's obviously a typo here, but I'm not sure how to correct
it.  I don't know the DPT implementation, but in Vinum RAID-5 implies
striping.  I'd be interested in hearing how DPT does it.

>>> There is another problem though, which is that I can't really have a
>>> general idea of the amount of space I'll require. Therefore, from my
>>> understanding, if I need to expand an array containing an sql db, I'll
>>> need to rebuild the whole thing after recreating a new filesystem on the
>>> new array. I'd be very relieved if there was an easier way...
>>
>> I can't make qualified statements about SQL.
>
>   Depends on the database.  Many databases allow the additional of storage
> on any device, so there shouldn't be a problem.
>
>   An Infortrend (see below) can do a transparent copy-and-replace array
> expansion.  This however just leaves you with a bigger virtual disk.
> FreeBSD has no way to grow a filesystem transparently.  You can disklabel
> the addtional space and make a new filesystem though.

In a similar way, you can increase the size of a concatenated Vinum
plex, or add another, larger plex to a volume.  Both would increase
the size of a volume.  Some people also have tools for increasing the
size of a ufs file system, but they still need work.

>> That's my understanding.  Even if you can get one, the performance is
>> disappointing.  In addition, I don't think you can't access the
>> on-board management software from FreeBSD.
>
>   I don't think you can access the on-board management of any of the HBA
> RAID cards under FreeBSD.
>
>   A SCSI-SCSI RAID controller (like a Infortrend or Mylex) is pretty nice.
> You can manage them.  The Infortrend support RAID 5 + 0 in hardware.
>
>   As far as vinum goes, I don't see how I can use to make a mirrored
> system disk (root and swap).

I do :-)  See http://www.lemis.com/vinum/wishlist.html for a
discussion.

> I don't know if that will even be possible on x86 architecture.

Yes, it's possible.  I'm looking at how to do it right now.

Greg
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