Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 12:36:44 +0200 From: Dan Partelly <dan_partelly@rdsor.ro> To: Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> Cc: Dmitry Sivachenko <trtrmitya@gmail.com>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@ntlworld.com>, Mark Heily <mark@heily.com> Subject: Re: relaunchd: a portable clone of launchd Message-ID: <07D83705-D89F-4125-B57B-920EDEBC8A85@rdsor.ro> In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1601081020270.34827@nog2.angryox.com> References: <5687D3A9.5050400@NTLWorld.com> <CAGfo=8kXzNVKy9gx0jkME4iRRyrgrsfpPnW3nYrZC0gysapPcg@mail.gmail.com> <817860B6-5D67-41A3-ADD7-9757C7E67C35@gmail.com> <alpine.BSF.2.20.1601081020270.34827@nog2.angryox.com>
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Copying the linux way of doing things should not be a goal of the BSDs. = It is enough that unfortunately we are forced into Linuxisms and associated wrappers to support modern GPUs. = Understandable , given how few ppl work on BSDs, and how little code contributions do the BSDs receive from the massive = enterprises they power (with=20 some notable exceptions) Let me use this opportunity to thank Juniper = for the glorified printf system=20 they contributed to FreeBSD .=20 Can the BSDs go forward with rc systems alone ? Sure they can , at least = for the time beeing, and we will=20 continue to use them. But innovation is desirable.=20 Systemd might be a terrible implementation or not (I dont know, I dont = use it) but the ideas behind it are sane.=20 rc systems are indeed robust, but they should be ancient history. They = are nothing but glorified autoexec.bat systems. Modern OSes need sophisticated dynamic service management systems, fault = management, transactional OS configuration databases, centralised event systems supporting kernel = sources.=20 This is the problem domain things like sytemd and dbus are tring to = solve. They might doit the wrong way, I personally think the direction Solaris took to solve some of those problems is the way to = go, but at least they are trying to do something, and=20 they clearly explored the problem space. Meanwhile here, some engineers are trying to change the FreeBSD OS = configuration to a new DSL, but without any consideration for issues of centralising OS databases and add innovation like transactions = and full concurrency safety.=20 YOu gotta ask yourself, since it is only a language change, why even = doit ????? It adds no technical innovations, the new=20 systems are not well enough thought out to support technical = innovation added incrementally later. So why are they doing it ? To change the DSL only ? By now all BSDs user are familiar with all = adhoc databases the OS offer. We are familiar (experts, even) with=20 the language they use. Changing this language , when no technical = innovation is present, is , in my opinion, ill-advised.=20 It is change for the sake of change, it is change because =E2=80=9Csomeone= wrote the code=E2=80=9D, not because it solves any real problem , or is = a well thought out engineering solution. I really hope someone from the = developers wakes up and vetoes those changes for the sake of change, like Junipers libxo, and attemtps to change the DSLs for the sake of = changing the DSL. > On 08 Jan 2016, at 17:20, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, Dmitry Sivachenko wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>> On 07 Jan 2016, at 05:12, Mark Heily <mark@heily.com> wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard >>> <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@ntlworld.com> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I recommend, to anyone going down this route, looking towards = finishing >>>> systembsd, especially instead of inventing a wholly new suite of = protocols. >>>>=20 >>>> * https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=3Dsystembsd.git >>>> * >>>> = http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-p= ackaging-hoo-hah.html >>>> * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D10176275 >>>>=20 >>>> The reason is that finishing systemdbsd will make happy all of the = people >>>> who want the desktop environments whose design is driven largely by = Linux to >>>> work on FreeBSD/PC-BSD. The desktop environments that they'd like = to use >>>> have been or are being modified to work with these daemons, over = this D-Bus >>>> protocol. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I strongly disagree with your recommendation to adopt DBus and = systemd >>> as core components of FreeBSD. >>>=20 >>> =46rom a practical perspective, the proposal has a low probability = of >>> success. Systemd is written for Linux and is largely driven by a >>> commercial Linux vendor. It is a rapidly moving target, with no = sense >>> of scope or boundaries. It eagerly consumes the latest and greatest >>> innovations in the Linux kernel, with open disdain for portability. >>>=20 >>> =46rom a philosophical perspective, I don't agree with the direction >>> that systemd is taking Linux. It's one of the reasons I switched to >>> BSD after many years in the Linux camp. To quote Spock, "Logic = clearly >>> dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". = In >>> case of FreeBSD, this means that the needs of the desktop users = should >>> not outweigh the needs of the server/jail/embedded/appliance users. = My >>> concern with systemd and DBus is that these tools are highly >>> desktop-centric, and introduce a large degree of unwanted change, >>> complexity, and risk to everyone else. >>=20 >>=20 >> I totally agree. >>=20 >> systemd is an ugly beast, solving simple problem in complex way. >>=20 >> After using FreeBSD's rc system for years, I think that switching to = something systemd-related would be huge mistake. >> No reason to clone everything that happens in Linux world. >=20 > Utterly and strongly agreed. >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= - > Peter Beckman = Internet Guy > beckman@angryox.com <mailto:beckman@angryox.com> = http://www.angryox.com/ <http://www.angryox.com/>; > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= - > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org <mailto:freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org> = mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers = <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers>; > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org = <mailto:freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org>"
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